caecitas said:

Considering the game is otherwise WYSIWYG, I do wonder if that is a typo, especially since Recon Boys are cheaper than Recon Grenadiers and I'd say UGLs are just as good as Panzerfausts.

agreed. Frankly considering how well recon boys perform (my favorite unit in the game thus far), id not be shocked if they fixed it.

FANTASY FLIGHT - IF YOU ARE READING THIS, PLEASE GIVE US A SIGN YOU ARE AT THE VERY LEAST WORKING ON AN FAQ!

knock once for yes, twice for no.

So, back on topic . . . give us some details on yesterday's events! Stats? Who won more/lost more? What units did you see more of or less of than you thought? Anything that stuck out as particularly powerful (other than the Long Tom issue), or other things that stuck out?

Inquiring minds want to know!

I have it on a hot tip FFG will be publishing an Errata/ FAQ very soon for everything VERY soon.

Denied said:

where'd you hear that,bud?

so the general theme of yesterdays games was an axis victory, yet most games were remarkably close. Im thinking of writing some unit specific tutorials and guides, but not sure if you can request a thread be stickied. Does any one know?

caecitas said:

The Axis won? But how did that happen when the Axis are so nerfed and the Allies have all the cool toys? Everyone who reads the rules and hasn't played the game says the game is totally inbalanced in favour of the Allies. So I don't understand how that could have happened. :-)

felkor said:

Even people who didn't really read the rules (but still have very strong opinions) agree that the Axis is nerfed! And they are outraged!

The stronger your opinion is, the more the rules and actual gameplay just get in the way. :-)

axis won the majority through sheer tactical brillience and a healthy dose of luck

Is the current opinion that axis is nerfed? hmm. It does seem that allies have alot more special rules where axis are limited to laser or dam res. But I'd be loath to say they are underpowered. Will be interested to see if this changes in the first errata

Maladict said:

id definately agree, the axis are far form nurfed after 10+ games with them.

Maladict is a regular opponant of mine and he did very well - we had 2 new players with us who admitedly were at a disadvantage but give the game a bloody good go. When using my personally designed force i believe it was 1 win, 1 draw 1 loss, so that says something about first impressions.

Let me start by saying I really like this game and hope it takes off. That being said, there is no question: point-for-point the Axis units are weaker. My guess is playtesting revealed Axis to be overpowered and the readjustment swung too far.

Comparison of units with similar stats and costs:

Ludwig vs Pounder
Ludwig rolls one additional die against vehicles
Pounder rolls 3 additional die against class 2 infantry, 1 against class 3 infantry
Pounder has a turret (do not underestimate the value of 360 degree arc of fire- worth a few points at least)
Pounder has Jump
Bottom Line: off by at least 5 points

Heinrich vs Wildfire
Heinrich has additional 6" range
Wildfire rolls one additional die vs infantry
Wildfire is Fast
Bottom Line: Wildfire is clearly superior

Recon Grenadiers vs Recon Boys
Recon Boys have 4 UGL while Recon Grenadiers have 3 Panzerfaust
Considering only reload weapons Boys roll 8 extra dice against infantry and 4 vs vehicles
Grens roll 3 additional against infantry and (effectively) 6 additional against vehicles (3 dice @ 2 damage per hit)
UGLs also cause auto-supression and ignore cover. Comparison is not even close.

Heavy (class 3) Infantry
Allies have 12" move and Jump, which ignores terrain and prevents reactions
Axis get a heavily nerfed version of Damage Resistance. No doubt DR is overpowered in Tactics, but rolling one additional armor die is far less useful and reliable than additional movement and Jump.

Now this is not to say the Axis is not competitive. Far from it. Gorillas led by Marcus may be the most effective unit in the game, and Angela is brutal - especially with Sniper applied to the entire unit.

The Axis is also able to take advantage of Off Target Shelling conditions using Gorillas, Zombies, Take Charge (special order) and Implacable (platoon upgrade)

I think you underestimate what an extra die or two can mean.

Say your Pounder is attacking an Armor 4 walker in soft cover.

Your Pounder with 6 dice will most likely roll 2 hits, and one will get blocked with soft cover and the other is going to get blocked by armor, and the Pounder will, more likely than not, not even do any damage.

A Ludwig, however, has that one extra die, but that extra die makes a huge difference if the first 6 are going to get absorbed by armor and soft cover. You go from a walker that has a tough chance of doing any damage to another walker in soft cover, to a walker that has a very reasonable chance of doing some damage to it.

As far as Recon Boys, I kind of agree, though… I'm starting to think the 4 UGLs is a typo, and they should only have 2 (since the models only have 2, and otherwise the stats are consistent with the miniatures.)

I feel that overall the sides are pretty balanced after playing several games. Jump is overrated IMO. Unit under attack can still react to the attack action used by a jumping unit, just not the move. Even one suppression marker makes most of the Jump units far less affective since they all have relatively short ranged weapons. Damage Resilient may not be quite as good as it is in tactics, but an extra armor die is still great when you get your Heavy Grenadiers in heavy cover and hold position. The Suppression markers play less a roll on this unit since they need their movement less. IMO, in a game were you get points for wiping out enemy units in several missions, extra toughness is a huge blessing.Heck, Rhino and the Hammers are infinetly worse than any Axis assault unit because one hit each turn essentially shuts them down since they will need to move to attack with their CC weapons. I'd much rather have the Zombies or Apes, who while using the less hard hitting Panzer Glove, still can both move 12"+ and attack with their weapons regardless of enemy action.

Re: Wildfire vs Heinrich. The extra range and extra die against vehicles is pretty nice. The Wildfire will need to get closer(and within striing distance of AT weapons against its light armor) than a Heinrich get the most out of its machine gun goodness.

Re: Ludwig vs Pounder. I also agree with Felkor on this one, the extra AT die is a big deal, especially when you factor in cover and armor rolls. An armor 4 vehicle in cover being shot at by a pounder by odds won't take any wounds.

There are other mismatches that favor the Axis pretty heavily. Hans vs any light walker, Sturm Konig vs Punisher, Angela vs anyone, Markus vs Rhino, etc. A unit by unit comparison is, IMO, not the best way to compare the relative powers of the factions since you can't bring units in a vacuum like you can in Tactics, and the Platoon lists work to balance this out pretty well with force composition and platoon special orders.

Jowimus said:

I agree, and will add that the ability of both opponents to effect the scenario/win conditions also seems to play a significant factor in balancing out the forces. Coming from a setting where folks tend to play "line up and shoot" or "forget the mission, let's just kill each other", the battle builder is a welcome and refreshing change that appears to have just as much influence on the battle as picking your force(s) in the first place. Do you spend your points setting up conditions for your force to excel? Do you try to hinder your opponent? A little of both?

If you're thinking strategy from the jump (and in a discussion on relative strengths of units, I'm pretty sure we are), you build your force with certain mission characteristics in mind. The Zombie/Ape-centric list builder may go in thinking, "I need 'Off Target Shelling'. If I have last point and it's already in place, I'll advance to 'Eliminate the Enemy' if the enemy is relatively weak armored troops or 'Close Engagement' if they're relatively tough/walker heavy." Strategically, it's almost like having a third platoon. "What more does this list need to help it win?"

I still need to get several games under my belt, but there seems to be enough depth of strategy here to make nearly any force viable with the right preparation/generalship.

felkor said:

In the games I have played, Walkers seldom benefit from cover.

p.42 If an attacking unit can draw line of sight to any part of the target vehicle's base without intersecting terrain, then it is in the clear, and the vehicle gains no benefit from cover.

It comes down to the type of cover your group plays with. We tend to have a lot of buildings / urban terrain like the original Tactics game, with some rubble / ammo crates / tank traps thrown in. In order for walkers to gain cover, there needs to be large sections of wide, low cover like hills or walls.

I have played out the Pounder vs Ludwig shootout many times, albeit without cover, and it comes down to dice rolling especially if there are mechanics involved.