So, I am trying to figure this out, but I think I need some outside help/confirmation. When a unique card is duped, a player may trigger a Response effect to discard the dupe instead of the unique card leaving play. My question is, where is the Response effect? Is it gained by the original card, is it gained on the "duplicate card" or is it a free-floating Response with no affiliation with any card (that is, does any card gain the actual Response)?
It's considered gained by the original character (or location or attachment). It's as though the duplicate said "Attached character gains 'Response: discard an attached duplicate to save this character from leaving play.'"
So the Original Unique Character card gains the Response. Hmmm, so would the revealed plot Burning Bridges actually prevent the use of dupes, since they are gained by and triggered from the original character?
Syd said:
Are you sure of that?
I kind of remember that Burning Bridges only works on printed triggered abilities. Not, say - on Maester Murenmure, and not on duplicates either.
It has been ruled that BB does not prevent dupe saves. I believe 'on' is to be read as 'printed on'.
Edit - found this old thread of ktom arguing both sides in same thread so now I'm not sure what to believe.
If it has been ruled that dupes are not "on" the card, then that's the way to go. I will often argue both sides to show there isn't a clear answer and that a ruling is needed.
Any chance you could find that ruling somewhere? That seems to be in direct contradiction to the FAQ, which states:
Using a duplicate to save a character
is considered to be a gained triggered
"Response:" action. Thus, it is treated as a
triggered effect and may be canceled, but
because it is gained (and therefore an ability
of the card attempting to use the response), a
character who is "immune to triggered effects"
can be saved by using a duplicate, as a card
cannot be immune to its own abilities.
Arguing that BB needs a special exception carved out for it seems unnecessary.
The keyword in my opinion is 'ON'. No one is arguing that a dupe save is a cancelable ability. I'm just saying that it is gained and not 'ON' the card, as BB specifies.
i ended up submitting this question and the atthegates/weaselsway question. will report once i hear back.
Not once did I consider "ON" to be synonymous with "printed". Even after hearing the above perspectives, I still do not read that as such.
In addition to this, I never heard of this ruling. I think it's important enough that it should have been clarified in the FAQ. I bet it's not "frequently asked" and that may be because it was not brought up for clarity by new and old players often because the text doesn't sound that unclear. A gold or power token is placed "on" a card, but that doesn't make it magically printed on that card.
i think the small ambiguity is opened by the blanking mechanic (how even if a printed char is blanked, it can save itself with a dupe). soon as i hear from ffg ill post their answer.
Well from other cards, I've learned that if it doesn't say "printed" then it doesn't mean it. Conversly, if it does say "printed" then that is absolute. As a side note, when I first read this plot I actually thought that the "on" was an indication of who the available targets could be. Such as you can't trigger any ability that would target a character, event or location card in play ("players cannot trigger abilites ON characters in play") … but you could still do ones that claim power, draw a card or mess with your dead/discard pile. But then again, I've never seen this plot played, so this discussion has never really came up.
Since the dupe response is a gained response, even a blanked character would still recieve the gained response ability. If this is plot was intended to mean "printed on" however, that would mean all forms of gained responses would still be legal including dupe-saves.
Slothgodfather said:
Well from other cards, I've learned that if it doesn't say "printed" then it doesn't mean it. Conversly, if it does say "printed" then that is absolute. As a side note, when I first read this plot I actually thought that the "on" was an indication of who the available targets could be. Such as you can't trigger any ability that would target a character, event or location card in play ("players cannot trigger abilites ON characters in play") … but you could still do ones that claim power, draw a card or mess with your dead/discard pile. But then again, I've never seen this plot played, so this discussion has never really came up.
Since the dupe response is a gained response, even a blanked character would still recieve the gained response ability. If this is plot was intended to mean "printed on" however, that would mean all forms of gained responses would still be legal including dupe-saves.
When I read this plot, I read "on" as the existence of triggered abilities on the following denoted card types that were then listed. Because the key term "printed" is strictly used through out the game, it would have been appropriate on this plot had that been what was a limitation of its effect.
I have no problem if there is a ruling on this plot to only count printed triggered abilities, but without representation in the FAQ I would never know in a tournament setting since it's not that unclear to me. I may have killed off characters that could have been saved by dupes.
What I think is irrelevant, it's what has been ruled as how it should be interpreted as that is important. Just like any of the other FAQ questions and entries that not everyone may originally think are unclear.
I'm looking forward to hearing what Dennis discovers from Nate/Damon.
Wow, I think this is my first question on the rules board that was not immediately answered with a variation of "just read the FAQ/Rules/Forums."
I am enjoying the discourse. If I were running a tourney, as the card is printed and as the rules for dupes go, I would rule that dupes could not save while Burning Bridges was revealed. BB does not specify "printed," only "on." Since the Response effect of a dupe is "on" the original character, through the "gained" designation (although not printed, clearly) it therefore cannot be triggered. If it is not "on" the original character, then where is it? I do recognize a level of interpretation on my part concerning the word "on" since it is not a clearly defined state in the game when it comes to triggered effects. My assumption is that there are two states: "on" and "printed on." Just because it's not printed, doesn't mean it's not on.
I recently asked Nate about this question, and the word from him was: ""On" applies to what is actually printed "on" the card; gained abilities are not considered "on" the card."
So Burning Bridges does not stop duplicate saves.
I got here too late, that was precisely what I was going to say.
That was actually mentioned earlier in the thread, too - that Nate ruled the "on" for Burning Bridges should be taken as "printed."
All that said, bowl of brown and motley work wonders.
I don't mind that being the ruling on Burning Bridges. However, I think it really should be an entry or question answered in the FAQ. This is not something that can be determined by reading the FAQ and it is not "clearly ambiguous" enough for it to be raised as a question by most players who believe they understand the plot effect correctly.
As long as this game continues to draw more interest and new players start to participate in officially sanctioned tournaments, it is quite possible that this plot could be in such a players deck fully believing that duplicates won't be saving the opponents unique cards(which is mostly the start of the debate here).
I know the FAQ is not updated lightly, and this plot(depending on popularity) is not in every deck, but I think it would be a reasonable entry, especially if there might be new/other cards that reference "on" in a similar manner.
If I am missing where this is cleared up in the FAQ currently, please let me know.