so I've got a few questions on attachments…

Can you still trigger "Banner of the storm"s ability while it has already been attached to a character, to move it to another character?

Do the king/queens chamber/drogos tent fall off when attached to a house card because they dont have the "attach to a house card" text? (its a silly question but i must ask)

does veteran marauder fall off the location right after triggering its ability, since it would not have the "attach to a location" text?

oshi said:

1. I'd say no. While attached, Banner of the storm ceases to be a character and become only an attachment with the text "Attached character gains vigilant.". All other text is lost, if not differently specified.

An analogy I've found in the rules is (cit.): "If an event card is in play and functioning as another card type, its text cannot be triggered in unless another effect enables you to do so."

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2./3. They don't fall off. They have the required text. It's only part of a greater sentence. "as an attachment to your House card" and "attach Veteran Marauder to an opponent's location".

I'll add a few questions about what happens when you blank attachments on non-character cards:

1. Attachment restriction on the attachment itself (Frozen Solid)
2. Effect on the attachment itself (Veteran Marauder)
3. Effect on the attached card (Abandoned Forge)
4. Optional use as an attachment (Chambers/Tent)

I have a few guesses:

1. Attachment is discarded
2. Attachment is not discarded
3. Not sure what would happen if both Abandoned Forge and a Weapon attached to it were blanked at the same time (should only the Weapon be blanked, it would be discarded due to the restriction on the Forge), but I'm leaning toward not discarded, like #2.
4. Not sure about that one, either.

Moreover, if you have an effect that returns an attachment to its owner hand, you can choose to return the attached "Banner for the Storm" to hand and then play it again as a character during your next marshaling.

Khudzlin said:

I'm in doubt myself too. I'd say that 1. and 4. are discarded, because:

"Unless specifically stated otherwise on the card, attachments always attach to a character."

and

"Any attachment that has a restriction (such as "Lord or Lady only" or "attach to an opponent's character") is immediately discarded from play at any time that restriction is not met, regardless of immunity".

Here, however, is explained only the reverse case, not the one questioned.

For frozen solid/chambers, I think that a blanked attach-to-location/attach-to-house-card attachment becomes a standard attachment with no text, so it becomes basically an attach-to-character attachment. Being it attached to a location/house card, its restrictions are not met, so it is discarded. But I'm not sure.

Abandoned forge and Veteran marauder I think work differently, because of this quote from the rules:

"When a card gains an ability or additional card text from a triggered effect, it retains that ability throughout the duration of the effect, even if the original source of the triggered effect is blanked or leaves play. This rule holds true when a card provides itself with additional text through one of its own triggered effects."

It's a triggered effect that puts attachments on the Forge, so even blanketing the Forge, attachments should stay on. Same for Veteran.

But I need a confirmation to these speculations

“Can you trigger Banner of the Storm’s “character” ability, even when it is an attachment?”
- Yes. There is nothing saying that it loses its text or that that its text box is not accessible while it is an attachment. We know that triggered effects written in the text box of attachments are actionable, so why would the triggered effect written in the text box of this attachment not be actionable not be actionable?

The comparison to the “event made attachment” is not entirely relevant. First, the fact that the rule is even there in the first place should let you know that other card types that have turned into attachments retain their original text boxes when they become attachments, otherwise, there would be no need for the attachment rule. Second, events are, by definition, triggered from your hand. Part of their initiation involves playing them from your hand. You are not able to do that when the card is not in your hand. This limitation on events-made-attachments clarifies that point. Otherwise, since events are specifically able to be triggered from out-of-play, why couldn’t you extend the “trigger the event effect while it is in-play as an attachment” to events in your discard pile (for example). So events, which must be triggered from you hand, are a special case and the reasoning cannot be extended to “you can’t trigger character abilities that can be triggered from play while the character card is in play as an attachment.”

“How do cards like the Chambers and Veteran Marauder stay on the non-character card”?
- The effect that attaches them counts as “specifically stating otherwise.” Constant effects (like the Chambers) will need their text to always be active. Lasting effects created by triggered or passive effects (like the Veteran Marauder) do not depend on the continued activity of the triggered/passive effects that created them.

So, “what happens if you blank an attachment with the non-character specificity on the attachment itself?”
- The “constant ability” text allowing it to be attached to a non-character is no longer active, the attachment is illegal, and is thus discarded. (So, using Frozen Solid #2 on Frozen Solid #1 - that is attached to a location – will make Frozen Solid #1 an illegal attachment because there is no active effect specifically saying it can be on the location. Frozen Solid #1 will be discarded – along with anything attached to it, like Frozen Solid #2.)

“What happens if you blank an attachment with the non-character specificity created by an effect on the attachment itself?”
- Here, the specificity is created by a lasting effect, which is still active, even when the text that created it is not. So blanking Veteran Marauder does not make it lose its specific privilege of being put on a location any more than blanking it makes it lose its “gained” text. Compare it to using LoW-Catelyn’s ability when Fortified Position is the plot. She enters play and is immediately blank, but the triggered effect that put her into play – which was already triggered and resolved – created the “return to hand” effect, so she goes back to hand at the end of the phase, even though her text box is blank when she does. The condition already exists and blanking the text after it is created doesn’t undo the earlier resolution.

“What happens if you blank an card that specifically allows non-character cards to attach to it?”
- Using the Abandoned Forge example, the answer is the same deal as above for Veteran Marauder. Looking at Abandoned Forge, the specific text allowing the attachments to be put on it comes from a triggered ability. Once triggered, the “it’s ok to attach this particular card” effect is created and it stays, even if the triggered effect that created it is blank. However, if the Forge had constant effect text, such as “Siege attachments only,” then blanking the location, with its permission to attach Siege attachments, would make the attachments illegal and discard them – unless the attachment itself somehow specifically allowed it to be on the location, independent of the location’s specific approval for the attachment to be there.

“What happens if you blank an attachment with the non-character specificity created by an optional effect on the attachment itself?”
- In the case of the Chambers, we’re looking at a constant attachment restriction, the same as “attach to an opponent’s character” is a constant attachment restriction that must always be true, not just at the time the attachment itself happens. So just like the Frozen Solid question, blanking a Chamber that is on a House card will make the attachment illegal and discard it.

ktom said:

Because I assumed that "attach it as a Banner attachment with the text : "Attached character gains vigilant." means that the whole text is replaced. So "character" text is lost for the only "new text". It is not written "adding the text", nor "replacing its text with", so I assumed the second.

Wow, I got all the difficoult ones

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So also the Dragons from Winter Edition maintain their whole text and I can move (for example) Viserion from a char to another by simply kneeling 1 influence and giving thus +3 STR, stealth, renown and deadly to 3 characters of mine, during the 3 different challenges? So stronger!

And regardin Along the Saltspear, the warships made characters maintain their text, so if I make a character out of Longship "Iron Victory", I still can kneel and discard that character to kill a partecipant. I thought that "becomes" would erase what the card previously was.

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Viseryon: No Attachments, Deadly. Challenges: kneel 1 influence to attach Viserion to a character (counts as a Condition attachment with the text "Attached character gets +3 STR and gains stealth, renown and deadly).

Along the Saltspear: Challenge: kneel X influence to choose X warship locations. Until the end of the phase, those locations become characters with 2 STR, stealth and a Military and a Power icon.

Longship "Iron Victory" (warship): Challenges: kneel and discard Longship "Iron Victory" from play (cannot be saved) to choose and kill an attacking or defending character (cannot be saved)

ktom said:

Forge does have the constant effect text that states only weapon attachments are allowed. But as I understand you, the weapons are still attached through the triggered ability, therefore the constant text is really only protection to the location from other attachments, such as "frozen solid." Correct?

If true, a useful way of locking up this land with it's attachments would be to blank the text of the Forge location (say for the duration of the phase with Merra Reed) and then apply the climbing spikes attachment.

Slothgodfather said:

I probably did not explain it particularly well earlier, when you trigger the Response on Abandoned Forge, you are not really saying "this location can have Weapon attachments on it." Instead, what you are saying is "the selected Weapon attachments may be attached to this location." So blanking the location will not remove the permission previously given to those attachments to be on that location.

Slothgodfather said:

Ikaros said:

If you need a clearer example of this, the gold and influence icons are part of the location text box on the Chambers, right? There is nothing saying those icons are gained when it becomes an attachment. So if "becoming" an attachment on your House card "erases" everything the card previously was, you'd lose access to the gold and influence icons in the location's text box and the Chambers would be completely useless - effectively blank - when played as attachments. That is obviously not the case, right? So by the same reasoning, when a card changes type, it still has access to its entire text box and remains actionable - unless something about the change makes the text box or ability inapplicable.

So, Viserion as an attachment has the same card abilities he had as a character. The text box is still there and available (plus whatever text he "gains" from the effect when he becomes an attachment). Since the attaching effect refers to Viserion by title, and not as a character card, there is nothing stopping the card ability from working while in the attachment state. Of course, if the ability specifically said "as a character" somewhere in there, the text would not work when he was an attachment.

The Longship/Along the Saltspear situation actually illustrates this. If the Warship becomes a character, it still has access to the text/card abilities it has as a location. However, when you go to trigger it, the card is now a character. So, whereas "immune to character abilities" left a target open to Iron Victory before, it would laugh at the warship-as-character because while the location acts as a character, its card ability acts as a character ability. You can still use the ability, whether the card is considered a character or location, but the circumstances have changed as far as considering play restrictions go.

just to clarify what i think is a clash of logic from something ktom described months and months ago…

it was regarding plots like feast or famine. if memory serves i believe ktom said that something like… for something to be a lasting effect it has to have a defined beginning and end, otherwise it is a constant or instantaneous effect. i think. it was to clarify that feast or famine would still be in effect even after flipping another plot that round.

is this logic specific to plots? because veteran marauder has no defined end… that i can see.

Making the difference between constant and lasting effect is sometimes tricky. You say that ktoms stated that a lasting effect shall have a defined beginning and end - are you sure of that?

From the FAQ, what I can say is that a lasting effect has a point of initiation, and last for more than an action window : it is not said it should have an end.

In the Veteran Maraudeur situation, we clearly have a point of initiation, since it is a Response. So it is a lasting effect.

Veteran Marauder has a definitie beginning - which creates a definite end. As far as I know, a "constant effect" cannot be created by a triggered effect (although the lasting effect it creates tends to act like one, particularly when it has the default duration of "until the card acted upon leaves play").

All you really need to know about the Marauder is that blanking the Marauder's card after triggering that Response does not undo the fact that you triggered the Response or the effects of triggering it, therefore, it stays legal as an attachment on the location.