Is there a specific way round that these two effects activate, or is it determined by the first player since they both say end of phase? Also, just to confirm, if (one way or the other) the power gets put on Cat and she's then immediately returned to hand but that power took the player up to 15, that player would win yes?

I'm not sure what you mean with"jump cat". I think it is catelyn stark from lords of winter. If so, you're right.

There is a framework windows at end of challenge phase, where both passive effects kicks in.

Precisely, at step 4 both passive abilities are initiated and resolved (if not canceled). But moribund cards leave play only at step 6. So Catelyn gets its power anyway, even if is returned to hand before getting power (the order of simoultaneous passive is decided by first player).

So, at step 4, game ends if 15 power are reached:

"The game is immediately over when one player
has claimed 15 or more total power between
his or her House and/or characters in play."

Yeah, meant the LoW Catelyn Stark, sorry for not making it clear. Thanks very much for the explanation, it was very helpful. I really need to get round to learning how Morribund works!

Keep in mind that the First Player does not get to determine the order of all "simultaneous passives." The First Player only gets to decide the order of passives that specifically conflict. So, just because two things happen "at the end of the phase," the First Player does not choose the order - unless the resolution of 1 will affect the resolution of the other. For example, say you have King's Pavilion out (standing characters get +3 STR) in addition to the following passive effects:

1. At the end of the Challenge phase, kneel all characters who did not participate in a challenge that phase, and
2. At the end of the Challenge phase, return all characters with STR 2 or lower to their owner's hands.

These conflict because thanks to King's Pavilion, the resolution of #1 will likely affect which characters are affected during the resolution of #2. So the First Player would choose the order (1, then 2 - or 2, then 1).

But in the Riverrun/Catelyn situation, these effects do not conflict. Even with the moribund rules and the possibility that Cat would be power #15, there is nothing about Cat having/not having the power that impacts whether or not she is returned to hand - and there is nothing about Cat being in play or not that impacts whether or not House Tully characters claim the power. So the First Player does not actually have anything to choose in the resolution of theose 2 passive effects.

Ikaros is completely correct that the order doesn't matter because Cat will get the power for Riverrun, either moribund or otherwise, before she physicially leaves play.

Sorry ktom, I can't find a real distinction between "simoultaneous passive effects" and "conflicting simoultaneous passive effects".

We use to let the first player to decide the order in any case, having this in mind:
- if order is relevant (something could change because of the order), then the decision is clearly up to the first player
- if order is not relevant, then, chosing or not chosing the order doesn't really matters for the game, so let the frst player to determine the order anyway
In this way, we can't go wrong.

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Beside this, I can't find even a distinction in the rules. All I can find is:
"when multiple passive effects occur simultaneously, the first player determines the order in which these effects are resolved." (coreset pag. 11).
"If two or more passive abilities are initiated at the same moment, they are resolved in the order determined by the First Player." (coreset pag. 23).
"Passive Effects Conflict: If two passive effects are triggered at the same time, the first player always chooses the order in which these effects are resolved." (faq 3.2 pag. 14).

"Conflicting" and "simoultaneous" are used like synonyms.

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Then, I'd like to have a little confirmation. If 2 or more passive effects are triggered at the same time, then they are fully resolved one at a time, right?

To be clear, let's make an example. Let's say there is passive effects that says "at the of the phase, choose and kill a character in play" and another which says "at the end of the phase, choose and discard a chacter in play".

Even if there are more than one character in play, I think that the order in which these two targets are choosen may affect the game. So, here, is the first player who decides if the discarded one has to be choosen before/after the killed one.

Let's say that the discarded goes first. So, at step 4 of framework:

I: target for discarded character is choosen
II: possibility to save that chacter
III: character becomes moribund

I (again): target for killed character is choosen
II: possibility to save that character
III: character becomes moribund

Then, at step 6, both leave phisically play. Right?

It is not this, at step 4:

I a: target for discarded character is choosen
I b: target for killed character is choosen

II a: possibility to save first character
II b: possibility to save second character

III: not saved characters become moribund

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Finally, just to be sure, if two player reaveal both Summon as the plot (when revealed, search your deck for a character, reveal it, then add it to your hand), what happens?

The first player may choose to have the opponent plot to resolve first, see what his opponent searches for (this may be a precious information) and then resolve its own plot and search a character consequently. Right?

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Thank you, sorry for this long post.

Except there is no save/cancel step at the end of a phase. But assuming your 2 passives initiate at another time (like 2x Frey Hospitality, after a player loses an INT challenge), they fully resolve one at a time.

Khudzlin said:

Why no? At end of challenges there is a "Framework Action: 1. Challenges Phase ends". Every Framework cointains "4. Passive abilities (now triggered) are resolved", which in turn contains "II. Save/cancel responses". I'm missing something?

Ikaros said:

(2.6) End of the Phase
Each end-of-the-phase Framework Action Window should be played without step two (Save/Cancel) and without step five (Responses). No triggered effects can be played after the initiation of the end of the phase.

Ikaros said:

But now say you've got a passive that says "after a character comes into play, it gets +1 STR until the end of the phase" and another that says "after a character comes out of Shadows, it gets -1 STR until the end of the phase." You bring a 1 STR character out of Shadows. These passive effects do not conflict. In fact, we are told specifically in the FAQ to add all STR modifiers together and apply the result 1 time. This is very important, because it means that the character comes into play at its printed STR and then the passives modify the STR together, "canceling out" and making its effective STR 1. The First Player does not get to decide if the character goes from "1-to-2-to-1" (by resolving the +1 passive before the -1 passive) or from "1-to-0-to-1" (by resolving the passives in another order) because the simultaneous, non-conflicting, passives apply their STR modifiers at the same time.

It's an important distinction because one method give the First Player the possibility of creating a trigger for something like Maegi Crone, the other does not.

Interesting this distinction for "end of phase" frameworks. Just for curiosity, there is a particular reason for it?

Yes, I know that the whole effect is treated as a net sum where sums can be made (icon gain/loss, +/- STR, etc.). My whole argumentation was referred to "disjointed" effects (sorry, I don't know if "disjointed" means what I think, but should be clear what I'm saying).

So Battle of Oxcross (plot, at the end of the phase, each player who has not won a Military challenge must choose and kill a character he or she controls" is even more powerful

Ikaros said:

To avoid situations like that, no Responses at all during the "end of phase" window.