hi guys!

in our last session we had a big dispute about how much the common folk in the empire knows about the chaos gods. does a townsman or a farmer know that there are 4 chaos gods, does he know their symbols or what they stand for?

i have a zealot in my group, who had lost her memory through a series of tragic events, including her being sacrifized to some beastmen and she bearly escaped. so now our dwarf slayer has been "chosen" by khorne to become one of his minions, including a scar that looks like khorne's symbol.

i told them that they had never seen this kind of symbol before and would not be able to tell what it was.

the zealot player started arguing with me over this topic for like 30 minutes. i think that people in the empire do know that chaos exists, but they have no specific knowledge of how "chaos" works. all the common folk sees of the chaos are beastmen, who are not identifiable as beloning to some specific god. if they stumble over a chaos cult, it is done away with by the witchhunters and i don't think they would tell the town exactly what was going on in the cult and what or whom they really worshipped.

i do also think that this specific knowledge might be forbidden, as it was with the inquisition in medieval spain…

so, how much does the "common man" in the empire know about chaos, chaos gods, their symbols and "duties"?

thx in advance, i'm really torn here….

Great topic!

My thoughts are this…

Chaos is an ever present force in the Old World, in varying states of severity. One could argue that the folks up north may have more exposure and familiarity with Chaos in teh form of Marauding warbands and such while other regions may be more effected by the occasional cult. However, how much does the common man know?

Likely the common folk know of an evil force called "Chaos" like our familiarity with "Devil" or "Hell". We know its bad, it messes stuff up and thats about it. I am pretty sure all common folk are at least aware of it's existence and basic badness because there have been numerous wars fought against it in the past. The stories and legends are told throughout the Empire.

Now can a common fellow determine the difference between Nurgle and Khorne and Tzeentch? No i'd say not. The intricasies are reserved for those who have first hadn knowledge or have studied the arcane. Most Wizards or scholars or priests i would expect to have a working knowledge of chaos and its mutative effects.

When a common PC comes accross a Chaos Mark for the first time, or a Chaos book i dont let them know what specifically it is, but they do know that the symbol makes them very uncomfortable, nervious, edgy, etc. As they are exposed to th basics of Chaos, i then start letting them get a little closer to the secrets and how chaos works as an enemy/force. Having an educated player in the group makes a big difference when chaos stuff is involved because they can arguably educate the rest of the group on what is going on.

Gitzman

I think that common folk don't know anything. "What devilry is this?" is about the best you're going to get out of them. Anything that isn't of Sigmar's (or other locally accepted religions) is blasphemous demon worship and witchcraft.

It's not what they KNOW, its that anything outside of "normal" and "good" is witchcraft.

..and I shall quote from the movie "Men In Black"

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.

1500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you knew that people were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

That's an interesting one. I think I've held it like you guys have - that the Ruinous Powers are more something that gets hinted at in a hushed voice and whose presence blends in into the general superstition of an illiterate and uneducated populace. I much prefer to release information on Chaos bit by bit and make the characters discover this dark enemy on their own. They unearth secrets that the common man simply does not know about. They come to learn things that only priests and witch-hunters know. Chaos comes across as much, *much* cooler and more threatening this way than just handing them the Chaos Army Book and and say: "You know all this, flip through it if you want to."

I tried to find some clues in the present books and so I've just flipped through the Liber Infectus to scan for any passages that shed some light on this in regards to Nurgle. As the Lord of Pestilence and Disease, his actions directly influence the miserable life of a population in a time without medical care. If they know one of them, they'll know Nurgle.

To begin with, the knowledge seems to be part of Mythology:

Mythology represents the Lord of Decay dwelling within a dilapidated fortress-mansion located in the Realm of Chaos, the infernal abode of the Ruinous Powers that exists beyond mortal concepts of time and physical matter. Liber Infectus, page 3

Pretty close to the mark (of chaos, har har), but part of myths and legends and hence not really something that would be 'known'. More something that could be true, but also just a fabrication. Songs that children sing in the Reikland mention that big rats can come and take you away in the night and after all everyone knows there are no such things as Skaven.

At least for the northern tribes who happen to have the Chaos Wastes a bit too close for comfort, their mythology gets rather specific:

THE GREAT GAME: The myths of the northern tribes tell of an eternal game played by the four Ruinous Powers – Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle – each brother trying to dominate his siblings. (…) Liber Infectus, page 4

Now how about your average Reiklander? Nurgle's worship is proscribed by dogma and for that you'd have to (a) acknowledge his existence and (b) name him specifically:

(…) Of all the human nations, one of the most fascinating to Nurgle is the Empire. Its cities teem with life ripe for contamination. It is to Nurgle’s eternal regret that the short-sighted souls of that nation have proscribed his worship. Liber Infectus, page 7

Unfortunately, most people are blinkered by the lies of their priests, but a few enlightened souls call out his name, and he is quick to answer. Liber Infectus, page 7

They could just assume Nurgle is part of mythology and worship him blindly, in the wild hope that the stories are true. But at least in the Empire, his worship is proscribed by the unfailing cults so they *know* that Nurgle exists. Dogma is as good as it gets in this pre-enlightened society:

He rains down disease upon the folk and watches them struggle to survive like rats on a sinking ship. Their choice is simple – perish in excruciating agony or invoke the name of the Lord of Decay. Liber Infectus, page 7

So I think I'll handle it like this:

Your average Reikland peasant will have heard stories and myths about the Ruinous Powers. He'll have no way whatsoever to differentiate those from the vast amount of other myths and superstitious beliefs that are ever-so-abundant. Omens, meaningless rituals, charlatans, songs, prophecies, myths - it all blends into a wild mix. He might only know bits and pieces of those myths and he might dismiss them altogether as nonsense used to scare children, same as those loathsome ratmen.

As for Nurgle, he'll have heard his name from a priest so that makes him real but anything more specific than that would probably be forbidden and heretic lore already. He'll fear him since disease is a steady companion in the Empire and he's helpless against it. Tzeentch would only be known within certain mage circles and Slaanesh among certain artistic and noble groups. Khorne, well, aside from knowing that the Beastmen in the forest worship dark gods and carry out bloody rituals I don't think he'd have any further contact.

What do you guys think? I haven't browsed the other Chaos books for clues - maybe there are more hints at this.

Generally speaking, I'd say it's up to the GM (duh ).

But my wiev on it is this: The Old World is a world of ignorance, bigotry and religious persecution. For most of the Empire there is no formal education, no open and reliable flow of information and even a strong anti-intellectual streak when it comes to commoners. Nobles don't want them to get uppity by learning to read and be able to better their station in life and the churches doesn't want them to be able to gain knowledge of heretical ideas because they're too weak to not be corrupted by it.

Anyone caught being able to recognize the symbols of the chaos gods would have to have **** good reason in order to not be tortured and then burned at the stake.

In addition: People who know Warhammer lore has a tenedency to not be able to sperate what they condiers basic knowledge of the setting and what is basic knowledge for the characters in the setting. The symbols for the chaos gods and what the chaos gods represent is represented in the fluff so often that it just becomes this standard bit of knowledge on the same level as "orcs are green" or "halflings like to eat". But chaos is not supposed to be so easily categorized. If you read any of the better fluff pieces on the chaos gods, you will see that they go under many names and symbols. And it's hard to say what is a seperate god and what is just an extension of one of the four major chaos gods. It's not nearly as cut and dry as the Warhammer Fantasy Battles game represent it as.
In addition, the chaos god symbols have sort of lost their edge because we as players are exposed to them so often. But this is not the case for characters in the setting. We are talking about a mark that directly symbolises one of the four MAJOR CHAOS GODS in a setting where magic is in the very air. Looking at such a mark, particularly one that has appeard through supernatural means, will be uncomfertable for people. They might even feel a slight urge towards the feelings represented by that god.

So to sum it up: No, people should not recognize that marks without having somehow gained the knowledge. I mean, where are people supposed to have seen the marks before? If one peasant (who isn't a chaos worshipper) somehow knows the signs of the chaos gods, do you think he's going to go around drawing them for people so they too can learn them? He'd be accused of heresy and burned at the stake.

Edit: A general rule of thumb for what the character knows is to simply ask "How do you know that?" There are ways a character could know one or more of the chaos symbols or what the chaos gods represent. For example, a soldier who once fought against a chaos army, might remark that the chaos forces carried a banner with a similar skull-rune. It seems like your player wanted to answer "I just know it." instead of giving a plausible explenation.

Ralzar said:

indeed, that's what i rules for aswell.

awesome answers guys, and thx for the infos.

liber infectus was my first book on the chaos gods and i LOVE it. and yes, nurgle is, in my game, known to most of the PC because of the exact reasons you pointed out. but khorne, that also one reason why i chose him, has no "direct" influence on life in the empire. he is not tricky he does not make plans. he is evil and bloddthirsty, thats his personality.

and yeah, i know the problem myself to not let your character know something you yourself know about the world. it is indeed hard, but my players are generally very good at that. but as soon as the "mark of khorne", which the scar will eventually become, can not be identified as such. oh and it gave people chills, and the dwarf slayer is now even more aggressive and cannot control his actions in combat anymore once he has spilled blood. that makes the most fun for me as a GM. anytime he rolls a chaos star somthing crappy will happen to him. once he was suddenly riding a juggernaught, he had dreams of bloodthirsters calling him "the chosen one", he has even seen the skulltaker himself a few times, mostly because he was riding "his" juggernaught and the skulltaker appeared in the distance to call his mount back! the hilarity never stops ;-)

nephtys said:

earlier edition Tome of Savlation:

Common View of Chaos Cults “When the blight ravaged our village, we of course turned to the Priests of Taal and Rhya to bring the crops back again. They said there was nothing that could be done! We pleaded with Sigmar and Shallya, even Manann to bring rain so something could grow. It was only when a strange woman came to the village bearing an odd statue that the crops grew right again. The words she spoke? I can’t remember. They made me feel uncomfortable, but we have food again, don’t we? Her Gods must be powerful indeed.” —Inga Schturr, midwife (missing)

(other quotes who magisters etc. knowing more).

I think a common Warhammerism is that people stray into the worship and service of Chaos without knowing it, coming under the sway the of 'secret masters' etc.