Is there something missing in the book on panzer gloves. I know as a rule of thumb you are not supposed to compare units and weapons but it seems like there is such a huge difference between the two. Rocket punch seems truly terrifying due to how they roll compared to panzer gloves. Does it have something to do with the cost of the units they are on maybe?
Panzer gloves vs Rocket punch
The Gorillas and Zombies ignore suppression, so I think what they've done is try to make the Hammers vs the Gorillas a bit more different than they were in Dust Tactics. The one hits harder but can be suppressed.
The Gorillas plus Markus have another advantage - crazy speed with attack. They can move 18 inches and then attack. No other unit can do that.
Vepr said:
Is there something missing in the book on panzer gloves. I know as a rule of thumb you are not supposed to compare units and weapons but it seems like there is such a huge difference between the two. Rocket punch seems truly terrifying due to how they roll compared to panzer gloves. Does it have something to do with the cost of the units they are on maybe?
Normally I'd say that I'm sure they are correct as written in the book, but there are enough typos and errors in the rulebook to make me very unsure. I hope if panzer gloves are really supposed to have attack dice inverted, FFG comes out and says so ASAP.
felkor said:
Normally I'd say that I'm sure they are correct as written in the book, but there are enough typos and errors in the rulebook to make me very unsure. I hope if panzer gloves are really supposed to have attack dice inverted, FFG comes out and says so ASAP.
high voltage blast
I like to think it's because the gorilla's and zombie's special abilities, but even then IMO it should have just been on the Hammers and Rhino. Hopefully it's just another typo.
Especially since the allies have 4 squads and 2 heroes with them and the axis have only 2 squads and 2 heroes with Panzer Gloves. And every allied hero/squad with them is Armor 3 while one of the Axis squads and one of the Axis heroes is Armor 2. So in a straight up fist fight, the zombies are throwing 10 dice needing hits to damage (3 on average, sot of) while the hammers are throwing 12 needing blanks (8 on average). Both sides get 3 dice to save (average 1), net result, both sides die.
Apes against Hammers is 6 dice each, which is an average of 2 for the apes and 4 for the hammers. So there is a level of difference and the allies are more expensive. So they may not need that edge, but I would appreciate someting special about it. Since te Axis are the ones who first made the VK break throughs after all.
Oh well.
CSMason26 said:
felkor said:
Normally I'd say that I'm sure they are correct as written in the book, but there are enough typos and errors in the rulebook to make me very unsure. I hope if panzer gloves are really supposed to have attack dice inverted, FFG comes out and says so ASAP.
"The "Panzer Glove" and it's derivatives are specialist close combat weapons employed by the unspeakable minions of the Blutkreuz Korps. Allied intelligence have had limited opportunities to study functional panzer gloves and speculate that their reportedly spectacular effects relate to the built in shock capacitors that add a high voltage blast to every strike. This certainly seems to be the case with the "Schwerer" panzer glove, which has its own backpack generator. When combined with the inhuman strength of their usual wielders, these weapons become all but unstoppable in close quarters. Requisite warnings have been issues to all Ranger units on the front lines."
It just leaves me feeling that for some reason something is missing. I think it should have the same rules as lasers honestly, for each hit it should add another hit to the vehicle. There's just something about the way the word is written and the fluff that makes me go… "How can they cause a high voltage blast and yet… they have a 1/3 chance? How are the allies terrified of these if they get better fists?"
The Gorillas can move 6"+6" max… there's no Move+Move+6", it states that the most they can move is the 6"+6" which means you'd do your move+6" then attack most likely. The rangers all have 12" + option to move or option to attack. I feel like they really balanced some of the stuff there with the Gorillas and Zombies. The cover rules really work to make Zombies versus Gorillas kind of hard to do, like… do you take something that has range or do you take the extra panzer gloves.
The Rangers don't really have their draw backs in taking them. If you take them you don't have to worry about either having your max move only be 12" without a hero or having your squad lose soft cover and hard cover becomes soft cover because of the draw backs to the units. And then the rocket gloves are just phenominal. I think I may house rule the Panzer gloves to be like lasers. 1hit adds 1 additional roll to hit and then halts after that.
But, as he said, with Markus they get charge, so it is 6"+6"+6"=18" and attack!
Peacekeeper_b said:
CSMason26 said:
felkor said:
Normally I'd say that I'm sure they are correct as written in the book, but there are enough typos and errors in the rulebook to make me very unsure. I hope if panzer gloves are really supposed to have attack dice inverted, FFG comes out and says so ASAP.
"The "Panzer Glove" and it's derivatives are specialist close combat weapons employed by the unspeakable minions of the Blutkreuz Korps. Allied intelligence have had limited opportunities to study functional panzer gloves and speculate that their reportedly spectacular effects relate to the built in shock capacitors that add a high voltage blast to every strike. This certainly seems to be the case with the "Schwerer" panzer glove, which has its own backpack generator. When combined with the inhuman strength of their usual wielders, these weapons become all but unstoppable in close quarters. Requisite warnings have been issues to all Ranger units on the front lines."
It just leaves me feeling that for some reason something is missing. I think it should have the same rules as lasers honestly, for each hit it should add another hit to the vehicle. There's just something about the way the word is written and the fluff that makes me go… "How can they cause a high voltage blast and yet… they have a 1/3 chance? How are the allies terrified of these if they get better fists?"
The Gorillas can move 6"+6" max… there's no Move+Move+6", it states that the most they can move is the 6"+6" which means you'd do your move+6" then attack most likely. The rangers all have 12" + option to move or option to attack. I feel like they really balanced some of the stuff there with the Gorillas and Zombies. The cover rules really work to make Zombies versus Gorillas kind of hard to do, like… do you take something that has range or do you take the extra panzer gloves.
The Rangers don't really have their draw backs in taking them. If you take them you don't have to worry about either having your max move only be 12" without a hero or having your squad lose soft cover and hard cover becomes soft cover because of the draw backs to the units. And then the rocket gloves are just phenominal. I think I may house rule the Panzer gloves to be like lasers. 1hit adds 1 additional roll to hit and then halts after that.
But, as he said, with Markus they get charge, so it is 6"+6"+6"=18" and attack!
Gorillas can't be suppressed and can take orders without being within 12" of the command section. They have a few advantages for themselves.
And yes, I specifically said that with Markus they can move 18" plus attack, which I think is awfully nice - certainly makes it so they can zip around behind walkers and attack them where they have no armor.
Also check the Jump rule. Enemies can't react to a unit moving with the Jump rule. That's amazing, plus the 9" vertical aspect. So the Hammer's aren't hindered the way the Gorilla's are in terms of their specials. The Gorilla's can still be shot up by moving. I'm not saying the Gorilla's are bad, I'm just simply making the point that the Hammers are better even if you give them a panzer glove ruling so it would still explain the 4 point difference and the possibility of a typo. That's all.
You might be underestimating the impact of suppression. Zombies and Apes can't be suppressed, which means it is very hard to "sneak up" on them. This doesn't address the fluff of comparing the rocket punch to the panzer gloves, but as it is, I think the zombies and apes are better.
For example, last night we had a stand off between Hammers + Rhino vs Zombies. I was able to suppress the hammers, making sure they couldn't react, and then fast move 12" and attack with the zombies, without taking any hits from the hammers. That's a pretty big deal. The remaining Hammers can fight back on their activation, but the zombies will punch back simultaneously.
I think the suppression and reaction aspects of the game are different enough that you really can't just compare a single stat line and think it's apples to apples.
CSMason26 said:
Also check the Jump rule. Enemies can't react to a unit moving with the Jump rule. That's amazing, plus the 9" vertical aspect. So the Hammer's aren't hindered the way the Gorilla's are in terms of their specials. The Gorilla's can still be shot up by moving. I'm not saying the Gorilla's are bad, I'm just simply making the point that the Hammers are better even if you give them a panzer glove ruling so it would still explain the 4 point difference and the possibility of a typo. That's all.
But units can react to the Hammers Close combat attack(before its resolved actually), just not their move action. This makes the ability pretty similar to Assault(which Axis get in spades) imo.
Ignoring Suppression is huge in this matchup. The Hammers require 2 orders to be able to move and attack, and that move order will be needed most of the time since CC range is only 3". Put any kind of suppression on the Hammers and they become next to useless unless they are already within 3 inches of an enemy. The Gorillas and Zombies can always move 12"(or more) and attack, regardless of enemy action. They can also always react to enemy move and attacks, so would get to fight back in many cases were the Hamemrs would not. Further, the Gorillas can benefit from Blitkrieg even if they aren't with 12" of a HQ or hero, further increasing their range by another 6". This is all without the benefit of Markus or any of the Zombie heros, which make both units quite a bit tougher (and giving abilities like Assault or Charge).
Jowimus said:
But units can react to the Hammers Close combat attack(before its resolved actually), just not their move action.
You can only react to close combat attack with your own close combat attack (not by moving away) and the reaction is handled simultaneously.
Most Armor 2 units can't even touch Armor 3 units in close combat so they basically can't react to the Hammers.
I agree with all your other points though completely. I think the units are actually fairly balanced, despite the rocket punch being more powerful.
But can't other units in range react by shooting before the CC action is resolved provided they are in 12" and have LOS? I don't have my book with me work, or else I'd look it up.
Jowimus said:
But can't other units in range react by shooting before the CC action is resolved provided they are in 12" and have LOS? I don't have my book with me work, or else I'd look it up.
I don't believe they can react to the jump movement but I am not sure if they can react to the CC attack or not. Keeping your shooting troops up with your zombies and apes is not going to be easy to pull this off though especially with your regular guys having to worry about supression and the zombies and apes ignoring it.
Only units targetted by an attack can react to that attack.
im not sure but i think you can only react to the cc attack with a cc attack so that makes the hammer just an insane unit.
felkor said:
Only units targetted by an attack can react to that attack.
Thanks Felkor! Knew I was missing something.
Dakkon426 said:
im not sure but i think you can only react to the cc attack with a cc attack so that makes the hammer just an insane unit.
Not really. If it has one suppression token on it then its next to worthless since it is almost required to move in the same turn it attacks with its 3" range CC weapons. This is where sniper teams really shine since they ignore Cover and Armor.
Jowimus is right. When I played with the Hammers they *were* powerful, but if they got suppressed, they couldn't really do anything useful. Having Rhino with them to help shake off suppression can help, but you won't always shake it off, and it's especially difficult if there are more than one suppression marker.