Heavy walkers were formidable beasts in Dust Tactics, but in Dust Warfare they're practically walking impenatrable fortresses.

My wife and I played our first game of Dust Warfare yesterday, and even though it was only a 200 point game, I thought it would be fun to throw in a Punisher as I had just picked up the heavy walker sets. She was unable to really even put a dent in it.

Ludvig gets 5 dice against. With a sustained attack, it would get (usually) 2-3 hits. WIth Punisher's 8 armor roll from frontal attacks, that makes for (usually) 2-3 armor saves, leaving Ludvig with maybe getting one point of damage. Definitely not enough to do serious damage (especially if there's a mechanic anywhere nearby.)

Even a KonigsLuther, if over 24" away (and thus can't use its Penetrator special weapons ability), is really only going to be able to do 1-2 points of damage a round against an Allied Heavy Walker's front defense, not enough to take it out over the course of a game even with a sustained attack every round.

I understand that these walkers are expensive and supposed to be tough, but there has to be some ways to take these guys out. Any ideas?

I have a couple ideas, but would love to hear ideas from others:

1) The fast close-combat troops. The Hammers plus Rhino could get behind the walker, roll 8 dice with 2/3 odds, which would do 3-5 points of damage to the heavy walker. The gorillas can do the same sort of thing, although they're not quite as mobile and only have the 1/3 odds.

2) Scout / Reserved vehicles like Hans could come onto the board behind the walker and hit it in the rear. A lucky shot could get a few points of damage.

3) If you know your enemy has a heavy walker and you're playing Battle Builder, try to make the scenario to your advantage. Key Positions is harder to win if you have fewer units (and someone with a heavy walker probably will have fewer units), and deploying closer would give you better ability to get behind the walkers to reduce the armor rolls.

4) Heavy Laser Grenadiers - if they can get within range, a lucky shot could do well (a REALLY lucky shot could one-hit a heavy walker.)

5) Try to avoid it - this might be possible depending on terrain and game objectives.

I don't really know how effective these ideas are - all I know is that in our game, the heavy walker kicked ass and could not really be touched by enemy fire. Would love to hear what anyone else thinks.

heavy lasers andphasers are a good start. also flame weapons can deal a HUGE dent in their health. people sometimes undervalue them because you need to get close but the right teams in the right platoons can easily do it.

Its true that the heavy walkers bring an almost unfair advantage but in a 200 point game where half your points are stuck in one model, it also limits that player on what they can do. also people need to keep in mind to have versitile armies when going into games. unless your playing strict army rules where you know they're not able to bring in certain units because that what you decided before hand, everyone needs something in their army that can be as devistating on type 7 vehicles as it is to hoards of type 2 infantry on the field

Tequila Sousa said:

perhaps then you started too far away from eachother. im not sure how big your table was but gennerally ya it hard when your so far away. i think 18" to 24" is a good space between deployment zone but again with the battle builder that may not stay as is. its unfortune but thats the big draw to heavy walkers is that they are tough but they do eat up a LOT of points (almost 5 times that of most type 2 infantry). with that said though even if the other army isnt playing any walkers they should still be able to take it out if they choose the right infantry units. just need options and strategy to get across the table.

felkor said:

I think this is key, and I really like it about the game. It's not like many other games where you just toss out a bunch of units at opposite ends of the table and go beat each other up. I think the whole game process, setting up forces, bid on conditions, etc, works together fantastically. Also, I like it because you really can start playing the game before you even get to the table.

I love the balance of checking out the forces and trying to figure out which conditions will work best for you.

From an Axis point of view there are some good options to take out the allied heavies. Its always better to get that flank shot or more preferably the rear shot. This is going to be easier to do against the fireball as it has to close in to be effective due to its weapon loadout. In smaller games onr thing to keep in mind is that you will probably be going second.but will probably have more orders to issue unless you purchased a heavy also. Generally if you didnt purchase the heavy you will have 3-5 more units than you opponent depending can on the rest of you army selection.

Battle Grenadiers, preferably with the extra panzershrek. Can generally put a serious dent in the heavy especially if you can close to within 12" and use the fausts. If you attach Angela to them they become truly devastating against all vehicles as she negates armor and cover saves. If you do 2 squads (especially if you pair the other squad with Sigrid it should be wasy to one turn any heavy walker.

Hvy Laser Grenadiers should reliable chew away at the heavys. Might even get lucky and take it down in a single turn.

Herman (and presumably Wotan). For the price of a single heavy you can effectively get five Hermans. Solo they are probably just going to whittle away at the armor ( and maybe get lucky damage rolls). If used in tandem with 2-3 they could potentially be an effective threat to any heavy.

The Hans works as above but has to manuever closer to attack.

Flamethrowers work but again have to close in. The Flamm Luther should help with this.

Apes and Zombies can do it but have to run in multiple squads. On the plus side they should be able to get into the rear arc fairly easily when they attack and will generally have 2 actions on the turn that they attack as they are immune to suppression. Also CC attakcs negate cover. Also Works better with attached heroes.

The Loth can also damage the heavy especially when used with multiple spotters/ command squads to avoid the front armor (or even get lucky and hit the rear arc). As line of site is traced from the spotter this should be to difficult. If used in pairs (pricey) it can seriously cause problems for the heavy. This should deter the punisher from just sitting back and pounding your units at range.

Ludwigs and Konigsluthers can do it but the ludwigs would have to be used in multiples (too many points) and the Konigsluther will take at least two turns if lucky to do it.

Thanks for the thoughts, DoomOnYou - the idea of pairing Angela up with Battle Grenadiers sounds especially powerful. Pair Sigrid up with them wouldn't be as big of a deal though, I would think, since she can't hit a heavy walker - she could add some extra health and a single berserk attack though, which I suppose could help a bit.

Anyway, I'll let my wife know about the Battle Grenadiers / Angela combination, which sounds promising. It was a really frustrating game for her, which is not a fun way to start playing a new game.

DoomOnYou72 said:

Angela has Frenzy and Sniper, neither ability is shared so the rest of the unit would not benefit from that. other then that though u broke it down quite well

From page 56: "An attack made by a unit with a Sniper miniature does not allow the target to make an Armor roll. In addition, cover cannot be used to reduce the damage caused by Attack actions made by a unit that includes a sniper miniature."

While it may not technically be "Shared", in actual effect it is shared, as if she attacks, no Armor roll is done and cover does not reduce damage to to any part of the attack.

But yes, Frenzy isn't shared - Angela would reroll her hits but nobody else would.

felkor said:

hmmm, i guess technically yes but i think this is something they would need to errata at one point. untill then its all fair game i guess

i think heavy walkers are less likely to be easily fragged, but can comftably be locked down with vehicle table damage results.

Keeping in mind tank killer weapons invert the dice when they roll on the table (and that you roll a dice per damage you hit the vehicle with, not saved damage) i think its very possibly to simply render a heavy tank useless with enough fire, even without tank killer.

Admitedly though in a 200 point game that is a serious problem. Play for securing objectives and attempt to ignore the big beastie is probably the best tactical option.

Long story short, a 80+ap tank in a 200ap game is very bothersome, but not unbeatable. If you happen to come up against such a beast, attempt to ignore it.

The Vehicle Damage Table makes it fairly easy to stop heavies from using Sustained Attacks, but without the inverted rolls, it gets much harder to get up to even the external fire result, especially if the vehicle can deploy with any cover. Tank Killer ups the odds of a six dice attack getting an external fire to 36% (average of two hits from six dice, with a 36% chance of two successes) from 11% for normal attacks, but that's not great odds, and easily countered with a mechanic. Six dice attacks are not exactly common.

If someone is bringing a heavy walker, it would make sense to station a mechanic nearby to stop any fires and repair damage, but situational tactics may not allow that.

Getting to a weapon damaged result gets harder even with Tank Killer, with the odds dropping to 30%, and still requiring a six dice attack for that.

Without being able to make Sustained Attacks due to being blinded, the heavy walkers can simply plug away with a normal attack and an attack that gives it a reaction marker (order or reaction) and still have good effect on the battle.

The Fireball is the one that most needs the support of a mechanic due to its need to close to engage the enemy, but the others can force the enemy to deal with them at range.

Taking a heavy with no mechanics is not a wise move anyway, simply due to the point investment. While the odds favor the heavy being able to plink away taking at most blindness without a concerted heavy effort to deal with it, pure dumb luck can cause serious problems. The Axis have more to fear from weapon damaged results, as they have fewer weapons even if they get to choose the wepons damaged.

Planning tactics on the hope of getting lucky, however, is not the best way to fight a battle.

Gimp said:

Hardest part with the heavies is getting past 7 dice of armor rolls. Red Devils will be pretty much a staple in my force for that reason. At least one squad.

blkdymnd said:

Yeah, they never interested me when there was only Dust Tactics so I never picked them up. Now they're starting to look a bit more appealling…

Red Devils Air Dropping behind them with Action Jackson and 60W Phasers in the rear [No armor save rolls] can rip one wide open in no time. Also, dropping Long Tom shots into them can help out as well.

I played 2 games last Thursday, and could not get ONE long tom shot to go off. I will not be using those as my anti vehicle measures, there's obviously something wrong with the firing mechanisms

felkor said:

Four wounds and a free sustained attack when you are trying to kill a heavy aint a bad thing . Potentially it would allow you to either reload your fausts (if you think you have another go at it) or move away if possible. However she would still be my second choice.

blkdymnd said:

Sounds like you need Rosie to take a look at yours. Mine worked fine last game!

blkdymnd said:

You must have Orks firing your rounds.

CSMason26 said:

Damnit, are they still trying to fire themselves to the front line?

So we actually had only played 4 rounds of the 5 round game yesterday. Today we played the last round. My Punisher did a sustained attack against her heavy laser grenadiers, but only managed to suppress them. They shook off the suppression, rushed forward and blasted away, blinding my punisher and taking it from 10 health down to 5 in one blast.

So, I guess it's certainly possible to hurt those heavy walkers. :-)

I also see I got rear attacks and penetrator ability mixed up. I thought attacking from the rear cut the armor roll in half, but it eliminates it altogether. So if you can get behind a heavy walker, it's not too hard to punch a hole in it.

For Axis players I think Sigrid combined with heavy lasers is a solid way to go to deal with heavy walkers.

For Allies I think Paras and either a Hell Boys or BBQ Squad with the Air Drop Upgrade are solid choices too.

-jay

So we actually had only played 4 rounds of the 5 round game yesterday. Today we played the last round. My Punisher did a sustained attack against her heavy laser grenadiers, but only managed to suppress them. They shook off the suppression, rushed forward and blasted away, blinding my punisher and taking it from 10 health down to 5 in one blast.

So, I guess it's certainly possible to hurt those heavy walkers. :-)

^ what felkor says is on the money. As allies you've a few options for rear-ending the big buggers, while as axis you've plenty of chances to cause damage.