Adeptus-B said:

the megashotgun you talk about isnt even that great honestly. not compared to the vanheim which gets an obscene amount of damage.

regardless, everyone has their quirks, but if i read correctly, the shield youre talking about is primitive anyway. also, they only protect the front and then only the chest and one arm, head if in motion, legs if stationary. that means if you equip one of your guys with a sniper rifle and make him a deadeye shot you can pretty much blow their arms heads or legs clean off. youre too easy on your guys. hope i helped make your game a little more interesting!

dont ban weapons from games on percieved stat imbalances. the "mega shotgun" only gets 2 shots compared to the vanheim. yeah scatter makes it more. and yeah, it can pack a wollop, but its not the end all and be all. if bolts were cheaper, id use bolters instead.

Commissar Vladimir said:

There are a variety of different types of shotgun shell in the Rogue Trader sourcebook Hostile Acquisitions , which includes solid slugs, flechette shells and customised bolt shells for use in shotguns (they're not particularly reliable).

Commissar Vladimir said:

The Synford-Pattern Lockshield isn't Primitive, it's +4 Armour to most locations, basically turning flak armour into poor man's power armour (or power armour into poor man's terminator armour!). My group has mostly guard flak or Enforcer carapace, so the addition of the shield has rendered them immune to most standard weapons unless they luck out and hit the right arm… Yes, there are gimicks that can overcome this (such as every cultist cell suddenly decicing to start employ snipers), but I'm not happy about being limited to that finite set of gimicks for every encounter from now on. And I'm not happy about the sheer number of adversaries I've largely lost access to. Goodby, warp zombies! Goodby, plaguebearers! Etc…

-And the Arbites Shotgun from BoJ does double the minimum damage of the Vanahiem. But that's beside the point that pointing to another broken weapon doesn't make this one not broken. Add to that the fact that in 40K lore, Arbites use standard combat shotguns, loaded with special ammo, and not shotguns that dwarf boltguns, and, yeah, I'll be banning both those things in my next DH campaign…

Adeptus-B said:

Have things come at them from the sides and the rear. I imagine the shields would affect their maneouvrability somewhat too, whats that you say, the only way over that bridge is moving precariosly over those struts as the rest of the bridge is pretty much ruined? Youll need to use both hands to get across effectively…etc. Gases dont care about shields, also if an explosive lands behind them and explodes the shields wont help much .

On the subject of Shotguns I too am a little wary of the Arbites combat shotgun because of its stats. It seems obscenely powerful at a glance

Adeptus-B said:

Zombies, plaguebearers and others are all fine, you're just not using enough of them!

Even the weakest possible opponents become a credible threat, when they can swarm you. Shield's no good when you get shot or stabbed in the back. Enough opponents and eventually someone is going to get hit in an exposed area. No need for snipers, if you throw enough bodies at the problem, shooting from high and low, both sides and back. Remember the "ganging up" -bonus, it gets mean really quick.

Large enough rabble of peasants armed with torches and pitchforks will ruin even an armoured knights day. Just let your players know how the numbers are stacked against them beforehand so they know a frontal assault will end in tears and they need to come up with something more intelligent.

In addition, I would imagine clever cultists to use landmines, tripwires, ambushes, malayian tiger-traps, molotov coctails, boobytraps, brainwashed suicide bombers, psykers, satchel charges and grenades, gas leaks, live wires, etc.

A shield will not save you from cobbled together flamethrowers either. And dim-witted true fanatics among the cultsmen won't mind getting detonated by their own poor quality crappy McGyvered-together weapons made to prepare speficically against onrushing Arbites. I would imagine any credible cult-leader capable of hiding from the them to be also prepared for the eventuality of the Arbites' assault.

Heck, if your opponents get to melee range, they can just rip the guns from your hands and turn them against you.

Besides, the Synford-pattern lockshield only gives the +4 armour bonus to legs if standing still or head when moving (in addition to the arm carrying it and torso). So its wielders aren't really invulnerable. Also, while the shield has a firing port where "you can shoot a pistol or basic weapon without penalty", doesn't using a basic weapon with only one arm produce a -20 penalty, unless modded with an "extra grip"?

H2SO4 said:

I have, out of necessity, started using the Horde rules from Deathwatch in major encounters. But I'm going to miss the days when my players could be intimidated by a few minor daemons, or even some cultists with autoguns. I knew this day was coming (my players make no secret of the fact that they are saving up to buy power armour), but I thought it would come closer to Ascention level…

Decent quality mooks with autoguns with penetraors rounds should surely be able to do some damage. Even if the shots do no damage, they'll still have to test for pinning. Dark heresy daemons have always been very weak, because they were designed when bolters did d10+4 damage and ascension didn't exist. I use the deathwatch versions to make my players fear the daemon, and you can alwayspoint out the the warp breach this time around is much larger, making the daemons more dangeorus.

on the arbites shotgun, it is sickeningly powerful. so is the lockshield. I asked the judge in my game to take a exotic weapons training advance for 300xp in order to be able to use the thing properly and upped the weight for both the shotgun and the shield considerably but she is still like a little siege tank. I suppose the extra damage from hordes makes mooks more of a threat, but I'm glad the weapon didnt exist when my group were low level.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well the bolt shotgun shells are described as fairly heretical so if an acolyte is seen to be using them by a tech priest a world of trouble could be heading their way!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first errata gave most deamon (weapons) the Warp Quality, making most armor simply non-existent to their weapons. Thats what Hexagrammic Wards (IH) are for. So 'simple' deamons like plague beares or deamonettes should be very dangerous.

Otherwise, use the cheap fyceline and detcord/-tape for some cheap (suicide) bombs, a 3-4 kg satchel would deal 3d5 to 4d10+20 X damage. They are rather cheap for that amount of damage. Other weapons for cheap resistance fighters are Grenade Launchers (frag and krak) or Disposable Missile Launchers (frag with 2d10 X Pen 4) easily force our team to fan out, which makes it easier for your enemies to get a shot from the side or behind in.

btt: i prefer the Vanaheim, and a lot of different ammo, Blazer Shells, Executioner Shells, Snare Shells, Mansoppers, Acid Shells … so many choices!

segara82 said:

I verified, and they didn't give Warp Quality, but they gave Tearing, Toxic and things like that depending on the demon.

Adeptus-B said:

if you say so. from what i read, it says that the shields are primitive. thats what it says. "primitive." let me double check. it says primitive right next to the special properties that its defensive, and primitive. if you dont want to take that, then fine. but my original statement stands. i dont see how 5+ shots do less damage than 2+ shots, but whatever. apparently my math is not as good as yours.

lock shields are easy to counteract if you know how. ban everything you dont like if you want, its your game and its perfectly within your right to do as you will. im just stating the obvious.

funkwit81 said:

i found it, and after reading it, i think its actually a grey area. its not heretical but it irritates the tech priests.

Commissar Vladimir said:

You are looking at the Enforcer Riot Shield- the Synford-Pattern Lockshield is the next line. Defensive, no Primitive quality. But that's beside the point that the chart you are looking at applies only to use as a melee weapon, and not it's defensive value. Neither the Riot or Lockshield are Primitive armour .

Adeptus-B said:

fair enough. i had considered that. but in the end, i still say that a simple deadeye shot completely negates the shields use. aim for the head. head blocked aim for the legs. a femoral artery is just as deadly.

Commissar Vladimir said:

You are absolutely right that elite troops can negate the shield advantage without too much dificulty; I just don't like being limited to only using elite troops as adversaries from now on. The fact that my players no longer have to consider a couple guys with autoguns guarding a door to be a potential threat has cost the game some of its grimdark character, i.m.o…

You need to assess the adversaries across the entire adventure… those few guys with autoguns and flak armour may not be much of a threat, but they consume time and ammo and bog down the player characters from progressing towards their goals. If the players have 100 rounds a piece for their bolt guns it may seem like all the ammo theyd ever need, but after a thousand 'basic guys with autoguns' in several hordes, they'll soon be conserving their ammo, making tactical use of cover and things like flamers, grenades or even vehicles. At that point you can mix in the elite adversaries - snipers, heavy weapons, vehicles, jump troops, psykers, daemons, xenos etc. and they'll be a much bigger challenge than before.

Kasatka said:

Exactly, depending on the situation, a war of attrition can work against the players with almost the same effectiveness than a bunch of elite adversaries. That won't work if they have access to support and supplies though, but most of the time anyway, acolytes are alone in enemy territory. When they don't have any of those powerful plasma/bolt/you-name-it ammunition, they'll be stuck using the same autoguns the mooks were using. Also, hostages, if some characters in the team are do-gooders, play with that, take hostages (from nobodies to governor). That way, even a group of mooks becomes dangerous, because they are a threat, no to you, but to someone else (on which you might depend, the only astropath or navigator on a voidship for exemple). I tend to make the situation more dangerous than the enemies most of the because simply because of one thing…players loot.. a lot. So if you put a Nomad sniper in the hand of an enemy, be sure that if the players see that, and if it is more powerful than the sniper they have, they will loot it, and just like that, you made them more powerful just because you tried to "make a mook more challenging than the others". It's not a 100% effective solution, but I do hope it helps a little.

Turtletron said:

I get around player looting, especially in sci-fi settings, by having adversary gear either get broken in the fighting, or flung out of the area and lost or in the case of more advanced items something like gene-locked to its user. that way the players may well get access to advanced weapons through looting, but you can control when they are able to unlock the gear for use.

Well, the problem is that WH40k is realy archaic and for the most adversaries its simple not possible to maintain gene-lock Gear because they dont have the technology. If they have the technology they dont have the technican(Priest). If they have the technology and the technican they are either extremly powerfull, heretecs or the mechanicus itself.

Genelocks are realy uncommon though they exist. But to equip a whole fighting force with that… for each gene lock on a weapon you could hire, pay and enquip another 100 Soldiers.

The only genelocks I can remember are in use by some Inquisitors or Rougetraders, we dont talk here about fingerscans or so. And also the Vindicares use them to protect their gear which is by all means on the top imperial equipment, there are other things too but these are realy special.

Also I dont like it that some of the Gear just "disappeared" like in video games to keep the players in balance. If i was able to defeat this opponent and risked my life I also want to have a chance to get on those tools that nearly killed me. Thats why I prefer combat tactics over just stronger enemys to give the players some challenges.

Cymbel said:

Couldn't agree more! Also there's Acid Shells, which are every bit as horrifying as they sound, and the good 'ol Executioner Rounds. Also don't forget that Shotguns are extremely commonplace, they don't arouse a lot of suspicion unless you're waving them around like a lunatic!

As for the shields being really powerful, flamers and firebombs. Make an agility test (at a minus I imagine for that big heavy shield) or catch on fire. that should liven it up a bit for them. especially with 2-3 of them shooting at once

Whatever happened to good old style D&D traps? Pit traps, drop down wall/door traps, flooding a room with something trap, trip wire traps that cause an avalanche, floor traps that cause lasers/flamers to shoot out of the wall or electrofy the ground, etc etc. I'm sure using a shield and walking down a narrow corridor gives you very little visibility to what is in front of you. Even just flanking the person would cause some grief. IMO, i believe large shields should give a -1 Agility Bonus modifier. I've used riot shields, and it's not easy running with them (**** near impossible actually while using them correctly) and dodging is just to much work. Can't tuck and roll with a shield on your arm, I'm sorry to say. A buckler or medium round shield, yes. A full body riot shield……. yea, not so much.

Anyhoot, wasn't this topic about shotguns and how absurdly powerful the BoJ one is?

Nameless2all said:

It is pretty redonkulous. I think the broad message is that not everything in every rulebook is balanced relative to everything else, and the GM will have to make judgement calls about what he allows in his game. Never assume that 'if its in a book, I have to allow it.'