It's the riding and the fact that EVERYTHING is wolfy. Being accompanied by wolves in battle? Fine, okay. Heck, the Rune Priest in my game has a Fenrisian wolf familiar. Wearing some wolf skins. Yeah, all right. Having practically everything be wolf this and wolf that? I don't like it. I mean, Blood Angels get a pass because not everything is blood this and blood that. The Wolves are really the only ones that do it, and I'd rather have space Viking berserkers that have a wolf theme than Space Furries that Wolf the Wolf Wolf, if you'll pardon the term.

That, and riding a giant wolf is just plain silly.

Gaire said:

That's OK. It isn't actually a wolf. Afterall, there are no wolves on Fenris. Or, at least, there weren't until the Sons of Russ arrived…

Technically, a Thunderwolf is pseudocanine macrofauna, created as a consequence of catastrophic failure of the "Canis Helix" posthuman genetic material. That is, it looks wolf-like, but it's actually far closer to a Space Marine of the Space Wolves in genetics than it is to any species of ancient Terran wolf.

Given that the Space Wolves background has long included the notion that those who fail to overcome their bestial nature during their early trials become savage wolf-like animals (it's mentioned in the original Codex Space Wolves, which was the first Codex published back in the early 90s), I don't think any of this is a huge stretch.

You… you're kidding, right? Thunderwolves are Space Marines who failed to control the Canis Helix? So the Space Wolves are supposedly riding actual furry/werewolf failed Marines? I'm pretty sure that link is never given in GW published work…

A lot of this is fan theory, but it makes sense. Okay, so Fenris was settled in the 20something millenium by 'normal' humans, right? During the great expansions, before the Imperium of Man. Cut off from Earth during the Age of Strife by the Warp Storms. Now Fenris was made habitable via terraforming, but they also did some genetic manipulation of the settlers. Fenris being a death world, such modifications were required so people could survive there. Over time, that genetic manipulation led to mutations, eventually creating the Fenrisian wolves. Fast forward to, oh, M29 or M30. Primarchs and Space Marines created. Russ arrives on Fenris. Some theories say that something about Fenris- radiation, maybe, I dunno- altered him somewhat, making him more bestial and lupine. The Canis Helix is later codified as a mutation of the Space Wolves' gene-seed, which results in the Wulfen and possibly the Thunderwolves.

A lot of the support comes from the novel "A Thousand Sons", in which Magnus the Red utters the phrase "There are no wolves on Fenris" several times. I'm not exactly well-versed in this theory, so anyone can feel free to correct me on any point.

EDIT: It should be noted that neither standard Fenrisian wolves nor Blackmanes could have originated from mutated Space Marines, as Russ was raised by a Blackmane she-wolf alongside Freki and Geri.

Wolf-LIKE. I always read that as being like most representations of Werewolves crossed with Ogryns or something. The Thunderwolf cavalrys' mounts are purely wolf in anatomy.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK

I think Space Wolves are totally the kind of guys who would go in to battle riding Giant Wolves. It seems to me to be that that is very in keeping with how they roll.

Don't know how I feel about Thunderwolves being descended from failed (too successful?) Marines. It has a pleasing kind of weirdness, but I don't know how cool it is to ride your mutated bretheren.

Well, I've said my piece, but that's just my opinion. So no worries.

Gaire said:

It's dealt with in both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns , which both cover the events surrounding the Council of Nikea and the Scouring of Prospero, though from differing perspectives. A further nod is given in Deliverance Lost , which mentions amongst other little facts about the Primarch genetics that Leman Russ was engineered with canine genes from the start - which also suggested that the differences between Primarchs may have been at least partly deliberate rather than purely the consequence of their scattering through the Warp.

As for the Blackmanes and Freki and Geri… all we know of the history of Leman Russ is legend. Who knows what truth that legend is built upon?

Hmmmm… heh cool, they got the rights to publish Blood Ravens crunch from Relic. Raptors sound like Catachans with geneseeds, which is kind of neat I guess. And then there's the space marine pirates the Space Sharks (I will never be able to spell the latin version without it being right in front of me,) am I wrong to picture one of those guys in an RT's retinue? Okay FFG, you win, you finally convinced me that maybe, just maybe, Space Marines MIGHT be as cool as the Guard.

I like how the majority of Chapters from the Badab War were included, that's great!

However!!!

There are no Mantis Warriors or Executioners. Mantis Warriors are particularly interesting.

Mantis Warriors are quite hard for me to picture, in fact, stat-wise. Bonus to Agility and maybe Perception, Intelligence or Willpower.

Executioners would likely have a similar write-up to the Subjugators.

I understand correctly, how much more did they put in for the Flesh Tearers then was Rites of Battle?

They have their own Primarch's Curse, squad mode abilities, Chapter Trapping, Advance Table, characteristic modifications… they have a complete write-up like the Blood Angels or Ultramarines.

Angel of Death said:

They didn't cause the RoB entry to be incorrect, their starting stats and bonus skill is the same, but they have a full write up, solo mode, psychic powers, Primarchs curse, advancement tables, the lot.

I just got it and I've been skimming through it. I like it, I really do. I'm not fully read up on the Space Marines, lots of novels and FW material that I haven't read up on so it's good to have a entry for a lot of chapters that I'd seen but didn't necessarily know that much about.

I don't know how they chose which chapters got a full write up and which got the successor adjustment (but with the Codex chapter entry that feels more organic for chapters that are not obvious successors), suffice to say the chapters with a full write up are pretty important guys.

Again though, there's an adventure at the back. I've not read it, I'm sure it's good, but for a book that's firmly in the Players guide territory I question it's usefulness. I can think of a couple of chapters of the top of my head that I'd have liked even successor rules for, the Mantis Warriors and the Scythes of the Emperor. So having to miss out peoples well loved chapters in the book that really fitted it is painful.

That last chapter isn't an adventure. It's all about the RP part of having multiple chapters and going to the Deathwatch. Good stuff for all players and GMs.

I finally got my hands on it today, skimming through it I can't help but think that this would have been better if they had killed the adventure in FF and rolled both books into one RoB sized book, so you had one first founding chapter and then all it's successors in one chapter and then the next and the next and so on, then the unknown in one and the codex ones last. You would have been able to squeeze more information into the book like that and really FFG needs to stop putting mediocre filler scenarios in there, same goes for Emperor Protects ect, wast of resources at least IMHO. There is so much good stuff in the Jericho, as the Achillus Assult and Jerico Reach books showed, let them be ideas that we can flesh out for ourselves.

That said it's pretty much just a continuation of FF, salutations for not wasting space on a scenario I really approve of that.

While I'll agree that adventures have less of a place in books like First Founding, I heartily enjoyed The Emperor Protects. Plus, published adventure modules can really help a novice GM get on their feet.

UncleArkie said:

Given how long ago FF was written, I doubt that would have been possible.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Sure for this publication, but it's really just a question of logistics. Man-hours went into Rising Tempest, Jericho Reach and Achillus Assault in between the two. Move the man hours around and you could do it easily, actually I think the two books would have benefitted from being written back to back giving each writer more time and space to delve into the origin of each first founding chapter and better transitions into information about its successors. Right now parts of the background get's told twice, or trice even. It's rewritten for the purpose and thats not really needed if you own First Founding, but if you don't and buy Honour the Chapter on it's own then you need the data, only having to write it once would save a lot of pages.

Also it would mean decorative pages per page of content, right now there are 4 pages used on decoration for relics, that could be cut down to 2, same goes for the introduction to the book, the credits,. tables of content, grime pages and so on can be cut in half saving art-work, pages and so, not to mention colour hardcovers. This all costs a lot of money that could be spent adding content pages, more advanced specialities, more background fluff act even if it only is 8-10 pages worth. I think that's my main gripe with FFG, bad logistics when it comes to doing disp's for their publications.

Work in publishing much, Arkie?

UncleArkie said:

Vergaul said:

Indeed, I'm a graphic designer. As for the the publishing plan I hope that the logistics for the line is planned at least 2 years in advance, so yes First Founding and Honour the Chapter were probably conceived at the same meeting.

Deathwatch certainly is a strange roleplay game, we're up to 3 players guides. I pressume the average group has got through about 5 games each. I'm a big fan of completion though, but this alone is a good reason to release as much material about character generation early in the games life cycle.

Currently there seems to be 3 levels of chapters rules so far; Successor chapter level, Standard chapter level (as per original rules) and advanced chapter level with rank 3 solo modes etc.

There's obviously a lot of contention as to who get's what already. That's to be expected but to be honest upgrading from succesor to standard isn't that difficult and you can fit a lot more in. I wish they had different stat advances with successors though as now the standard rules for those chapters that were successors seem overly constrained.

Captain Ventris said:

Very Cool

I will have to get this. Now a question do they still have access to Blood Angels stuff, or are they cut off?