Hello Gents!

I'm eager to read these rules. One of the guys I have the most respect in the gaming world is Andy Chambers, the responsible for me to start WH:40K.

With the actual WH:40K scenario, a lame gaming system with cool miniatures, I've started to look at superior games with normal-to-cool miniatures. The game that fits me right now is Hordes+Warmachine, I just love the tactical depth of this gaming system and how can be exploitable in the gaming table.

Enough rambling!

I'd like to start Dust but I'm having many second thoughts.

One of them is the quality of the miniatures. I got in my hands this weekend a Light Panzer Walker and I was very surprised with its quality. The plastic is that rigid plastic similar to military model kits. That's more than great to me! Of course people say it's ready to put-and-play over a table but I've seen some mold-lines and some sprue connector cuts that needed to be polished, apart from that the model was perfect.

Now, the big issue is the Infantry models. I've never had those in my hands but a commission painter, friend of mine, is painting Dust Tactics Infantry and he said to me that these miniatures are made from soft plastic, the one in the likes Airfix kind of plastics (I guess AT-43 was also this kind of plastics). If it's so it's a big down for me. I like the GW type of plastic and that's the softest plastic I'd go. And comparing the prices of Dust miniatures with GW miniatures, being at this kind of plastic, I would never buy Dust miniatures.

Also I was told that there will be new boxes with the Warfare content and stuff, and with new miniatures, and that recent Infantry miniatures are made from the "standart" miniature plastic. Is it true? Or these are just words on the streets?

Another question I have regards Army Bundles. Right now there are many box options and the Tactics core set that people can start off.
But there will be any army bundles?
Again, comparing the prices of this game with the likes of GW it would be very difficult to convince someone to try a new gaming system in the same price range or even more expensive.
Without any Army Bundles it would make me pay 2x more to have an Army in this gaming system to have 2x less (if fortunate) the number of player... I guess that's not a good business policy.

Please, share the knowledge with me! I'm looking for a great new miniatures game and maybe this is The One!

you say you dont like the plastic, why?

right now the only bundels are the 2cor sets but you can find nice armys on ebay too. also you can get a good size army for about 100$ even a la carte.

Dakkon426 said:

If it's indeed soft plastic (and even in future releases) I will opt for alternative miniatures (Secrets of 3rd Reich).

I dislike soft plastic. It bends, it's difficult to work/clean, it's difficult to paint, it bends (yes, I hate bent weapons).

For me, miniatures for miniature gaming have to be hard plastic (like the ones of GW), really hard plastic (like the ones from model kits ex: Tamiya), metal or really hard PVC (like the plastics from Privateer Press); in this order of preference. I hate soft plastic as much as I hate resin.

Did I misunderstand you thinking that anything 40k is the same price as Dust Tactics? The price point and fun factor of this game is a great alternative to 40k. I have friends who play and I have never once been interested or even thought I MIGHT play 40k. All the huge books and basic cost just to start, can't even compete with entering into Dust Tactics.

I do agree that the minis can be soft in some areas, mostly the thing antenna or gun barrels but some people are easily modding those to be hard.

Overall, the value can't be beat for what you get and for how great the game plays.

I dunno, when it was $14.99 for 5 guys in soft plastic, that's one thing, but $19.99 for 3 guys in soft plastic with the prices seeming to creep upwards... that's becoming more expensive than some manufacturers real metal / hard plastic minis.

Buy from miniature market imo!

Also think about everything you DON'T have to buy, compared to the GW games. Just buy your figures and the one rule book (2nd book if you are playing w SSU)

I own one of everything released so far and 4 of the original core sets. I hope to sell off one once the price goes up. I hope to paint another and sell that as well. I'm keeping the last two for personal use.

All well worth the cost and still hugely cheaper than having even close to the equivalent in GW stuff.

zuggzugg said:

First of all, I'm not interested in playing Dust Tactics, I'm interested in this game, Dust Warfare, which I see as a great alternative to WH:40K and, of course, was written by one of the 40K Power Trio back in the days, Mr. Andy Chambers.

Dust Tactics and these type of Hybrid games that mix boardgame with tabletop miniatures normally don't worth the effort, IMO, because players will opt to play tabletop miniature version instead. See Battletech, for example. I would rather play a tabletop game or a *real* boardgame, if in need of a filler a CCG/LCG game would do.

Now, I've done some price research...

In the European online retailers, a box of Combat Rangers Squad with 5 miniatures costs 15~ euros.
A box of Imperial Guard Shock Troops with 10 miniatures costs 19~ euros.
A box of Imperial Guard Command with 5 miniatures (high detailed) costs 16~ euros.

I'd rather pay that extra euro and having to cut, clean (Dust miniatures need cleaning - mold-line cleaning) and mount hard plastic miniatures.
And don't even compare the level of details of both miniatures. GW is now producing dull games but one thing they know how to do is their miniatures.

Now Tanks/Vehicles
Heavy Panzer and SSU Coppters: 33~ euros
Imperial Guard Tanks (and most of GW Tanks): 32~ euros

Here I've got nothing bad to say about their plastics, only their price is superior than GW kits but since they're already mounted... (this could be a negative point to some).

Now, the important stuff...

As you've all seen in the FFG previews, this game is made to be played with squads and vehicles. You'll see around 4-to-6 squads and 2-to-4 vehicles in their pics/reports. Now, assuming that nothing will change in the FFG way of selling this game, this game is more expensive than 40K by far!

And don't come with that argument of "buy online" or "buy second hand"... FFG needs to sell this game! Telling people to buy second hand is the same as telling that this game sucks, because you have drop-outs selling their stuff online.

If FFG will not put starters for sale, with a medium cut on their price, I don't see this game as a great contender to the ones like Warhammer and Warmachine, where I can point a new player into one or two boxes to start playing those games.

zuggzugg said:

Imagine you'd play 40K like this game (4 squads, hero's and a couple of vehicles).
That would turn into 1 Batallion Box along with a Vehicle to add to the one in the BBox, the rulebook and the Codex for your army.
It's just the same. If you already have all the stuff you'd need to buy the SSU book to use the SSU, right?!

Now, let's compare with Warmachine...
I'd have to buy the Starter Box (Warcaster, some Jacks), a unit box and a Solo blister. The rulebook it's also need, no aditional rules need to buy since all the figures come with rules-cards.
I can also compare the Dust Tactics revised Core set against the Warmachine 2 Player box set, if you'd like. You'll see where the value is.

As you can see, Dust is not hugely cheaper, it's exactly the opposite. I can start playing 40K in a Dusty level for about 100 euros. Can you do the same? And what about playing Dust in a 40K level, how much would you spend?!

Don't think of me as a hater, I want to like and buy this game. I see so much potential in it. But FFG needs to help so new players could opt between this game and the other games, and right now I don't see it happening. And I've been playing tabletop miniatures games for 10 years now...

Ok... being a long time 40k player I have to admit that i switched recently to Dust tactics and will play Dust warfare as well.

Soft plastic is no issue for me. It has actually some pros. No more broken barrels, antennas, hands etc... And painted, you see no difference. Your models don't brake apart if they fall off the table etc... Cons... ok you have some warped weapons, but you can reshape them in the exact same way as those badly bend Forgeworld resin models...and I own a complete Elysian drop troop army, so I know what I'm talking about.

Plus, I had no serious issues with mold lines.

Prices... oh man... you can't even beginn to compare. You said for a Cadian Shock troops 10 man squad 19 €... I don't know where you got your price, but that squad comes 22,75€ in my local GW store. And then you get a flamer and a grenade launcher and a Las pistol and chainsword for the sarge... I mean seriously??? Who plays that. You have to invest at least another 10€ for special waepons and sergeant upgrades. And the command squad is priced at 22,50€. In my experience I have to pay 30 - 35€ for a playable imperial guard squad without heavy weapons.

The Dust minis you get from German online retailers and Game-stores start from 11€ for a 5 man squad with 19€ at the max. And then (at least in Dust tactics) the squad is complete. No need to buy another special weapon, or heavy weapon.

A medium Panzer walker from the same online retailers come at 18-20€ compared to 39€ for an imperial guard tank.

And they come pre-primed, which saves me a lot of time and money, since I don't have to buy primer.

You are right. GW knows how to make absolutely stunning minis... but 40k was on a downward race rulewise, these last editions and the last increase in their pricing finished it for me. You have to like the look of the Dust universe, but you get a playable army for comparably small money.

Obviously my opinion is very pro Dust... in the end you have to decide.

I say Dust Tactics only because the miniatures are all one in the same.

The rules (or lack of rules) is also something huge you didn't touch on. Aside from the cost, this was probably the biggest factor for me. I have friends who are seasoned vets w/ 40k and such and they all agree that even though they love the game, the rules are ridiculous. Often causing a lot of fun to be lost in the rules. This game is far less complex while still offering good tactical strategy.

I do not question GW quality at all aside from hearing about the finecast stuff, which is mostly just molding errors. I did mention the softness of many of the models that are thin or have long gun barrels, etc. I do feel they are more resilient than the GW stuff as they do not crack or explode apart if/when dropped as ive seen w/ some of the GW stuff. I'm not at all trying to say they are "impact friendly" but when they are on the table, it doesn't matter as much to me what they are made of. They are well made, good size, great theme and look awesome.

I feel I have gotten a great deal of content for the money I've spent. It didnt take me long at all to decide on Dust Tactics. I didn't even know about Warfare when buying it. Once i heard about it and read up, I didnt have the same feeling of "lol tabletop games no thanks". I was actually excited and eager to try it out. Obviously having all the minis helped but if it was anything like 40k, i'd have skipped out a long time ago and just stuck to Tactics. I've been around 40k for years and never once did I ever thing about picking it up. Just hanging out with people who play it was enough to steer me away from it.

Their models however are badass. All the tutorials and videos I watch on painting are like 95% gw content.

Plueshpanda said:

Haha, our replies are very similar. Funny how we bought thought about the softness being a plus when they get dropped!

SoTR minis aren't all that great. I've got to many miscasts.

Hi gents,

Long reply in progress...

Plueshpanda said:

IMO soft plastics have to be low cost, now matter how much detail they got and how big they are (in scale). I look at Zvezda 1/72 soft plastics and look at the detail and their price and I give a big thumb up. I cannot pay the same amount I pay for hard plastic high detailed miniature kits for the same amount of mounted soft plastics miniatures. Sorry but I can't. I don't feel the quality of the material pays its price.
But notice that this is my view on soft plastics in general, and not these specific plastics. As I've said, I didn't had an infantry model in my hands yet, but if they are indeed made from a softer plastic than the GW/PP ones, well, this case applies.

Also, try to remove mold lines from soft plastics... it's a hell of a work! I'd rather opt to remove mold lines from metal with a Dremel than having to remove mold lines from soft plastics (like those from Zvezda).

Plueshpanda said:

Well, comparing Retail prices of Dust Tactics stuff with GW local store prices is just a dumb and futile exercise.
I compared the prices from the same source (Maelstrom Games) and that's how you make this type of analysis. If I wanted to bend the prices in my favour I would compare the prices from an even lower online GW retailer (like Triple Helix) with the prices listed on FFG website (the same as those in GW local stores for GW stuff).

So you got no valid point in this whole quote.

As for pre-primed, that can be a pro or con, depending on the perspective... if I wanted to paint them from a different color, a bright one, I would have to prime them again, white.
This is good for lazy persons who don't look into the hobby side, only to the gaming side. I don't have much to say about it because I'm a lazy person too... but I see both sides of this track.

As for the options, once again you were biased in your argument. I told you could buy a box of XXXX and play with it just like I would say I can buy a box of YYYY for Dust and play with it. In every game, and notice well what I'm writing, in EVERY GAME there will be great choices and poor choices. Even in Warmachine+Hordes where people say that "all the options are valid" there are better options that would see the tabletop more often.
So, saying I would need to buy X blisters is not a valid point. I'm working on a Space Wolves army right now and all I had to buy was Space Wolves Pack (the basic box) and other option boxes (Dreadnoughts, Scouts, Razorbacks), without the need to go for the blister weapons stuff. The same will happen in Dust, just give it time to set the rules on the street and people start to work that YYYY unit is better in 3x or 4x in an army, and people will buy to optimize just like you pointed on your post for 40K.

zuggzugg said:

Sorry to disappoint you, good sir, but how many times did I mentioned in my posts that "GW produces dull games"?!

That's the main reason I dropped playing WH Fantasy and put all my stuff to sell.
I still have my 40K and I'm still buying 40K armies because of their miniatures and the pleasure that's building an army.
For my gaming needs I go for Warmachine+Hordes. Right now is the best tabletop game in the market.
I tried many games along these years: WH, Void, WAB, FOW, Rules of Engagement... I've seen some interesting stuff in the Infinity system but their miniatures are awfull, and the Spartan Games are not for me (very slow paced games).

I'm not very eager for the new WH:40K 6th Edition, and I hope they don't make the same they did with WH Fantasy because if they do I will use their miniatures but not their games.

zuggzugg said:

You are not forced to pay/buy Finecrap models and Forge World stuff. You can convert them from plastics/metals if you want. I'm not having a single metal/finecrap model in my Space Wolves project. Even Logan will be built on plastic with all the schizzle from the Terminators box.
You're right with the damage done in a dropped GW miniature but that also happens in Dust miniatures, or not? Hard model kit plastic is worse than hard GW plastics when dropped, so I don't want to know what happens if I drop a Dust vehicle.
This is not ranting, is just making a point. In every aspect there are pros and cons, don't always see the cons/pros but balance them well.

The main problem here is how will I introduce this game to new players having to deal with the competition?
A game has to be set on costs, quality (of miniatures in this case), fun and ease. You can have a great gaming system, fun as hell, but if you don't have the cost or the quality, it's game over. People would just turn into the nearest big thing and here in Portugal is Flames of War and Warmachine (right now, in times was Warhammer and 40K).
And I say this based in my experiences to introduce A Game of Thrones LCG in my country. People would just play M:TG instead because of # of players even knowing AGOT:LCG is a better game; or would go for Yu-Gi-Oh because the amount of money they could spent/earn in that system.

Feldwebel_Francis said:

I've only mentioned them because they are from a similar setting.
I'll have to dig more, though.

Thank you y'all!

I don't believe the miniatures are the soft Airfix plastic, they seem to be somewhere between soft and hard plastics.

I am on the same page; the DUST figure packs are of no value to me. I have lots of proxies that work until I see different from FFG.

The Dust Figure are amazingly durable I seen them thrown across a room with no damage done. the Walker however I would say are durable, I've knock 1 off the table onto a hardwood floor without any damage.

I have played 40k, WFB, Warmachine/Hordes, and I have enjoyed Dust Tactics/Warfare since I switched to playing them. The infantry are not the same stuff as AT-43 or Confronation, they are a stronger plastic not the same as GW and all my Warmachine and Horde stuff is white metal haven't gotten any of their plastic kits. I have found the game cheaper, but the retailer I buy from has a 35 to 40% discount so that helps, but I have a Allied, Axis and pre-ordered SSU and spent less then when I built my Imperial guard or Skaven. As far as army packs go, yes that would be a smart move for Warfare, but no idea if they plan on doing it, would be a great way to get people into it. As far as the vehicles falling I play with my kids and all the miniatures have been durable and have taken falls better then my war jacks or even plastic 40k kits. As for the pre primed I see you point, I haves ran into issues because I painted my units using the primer as a base, but for a major change I can see we're it would be annoying, and yes there are still mold lines and minor cleaning to be done but I have enjoyed the models.

One thing is clear. You won't need as many models to play it properly. Just like WarmaHordes/Infinity, individually the price may be higher, but you don't need that much to game.

Also as the previous guy stated, a box set is complete.

So, saying I would need to buy X blisters is not a valid point. I'm working on a Space Wolves army right now and all I had to buy was Space Wolves Pack (the basic box) and other option boxes (Dreadnoughts, Scouts, Razorbacks), without the need to go for the blister weapons stuff. The same will happen in Dust, just give it time to set the rules on the street and people start to work that YYYY unit is better in 3x or 4x in an army, and people will buy to optimize just like you pointed on your post for 40K.

I also would like a harder plastic for the soldiers, and yes GW put the standard for detailed 28mm very high. But I got used to the FFG-plastic after preparing and painting a few of my units. The bent weapons can easily be repaired, and I think there wouldn't be so many bent parts if the figs would not be packed in these (*'%&-) tiny bags as the plastic tray in the box is more than sufficient to protect the unit. But there is a limit in the "thickness" of the figures with soft plastic, Angela for example is good example as she is too thin and wobbly. Mould lines can also be removed rather easily but I had to change my way to do it using more sand paper and less knives (which was good for my fingers*g*)

Compared to GW I find the amount (not the quality) of details good, unfortunately some details seem to get lost due to the plastic but the overall quality of the details is good. Some of the GW miniatures (I'm looking at my Beastmen) are to overloaded with tiny details as badges, charms and skulls(!). As I am more a painter than a player this significantly reduces my painting speed as I want to paint such details

Concerning the price, I think you cannot compare it completely right now. Upt to now, at least for Dust Tactics (a boardgame), I buy a box of 5 and this is a complete unit which I can use. If I look at my Skaven army (tabetop system) I have to buy mutlible boxes to get a playable unit (or when I started 40k in the early 90s, I needed 5 aspect warriors for a valid unit, and they were sold in blisters of 3). It will be interested to see if Dust Warfare will change the Dust Tactics system. If I look at the platoon example on the website it seems that at least the basic principle of "one box is a complete unit" seems to be untouched. If this stays untouched, In my opinion it is not as expensive as GW as you need less boxes. If the system is changed to a more open/flexible/different system as GW uses (e.g. 5-x soldiers in a unit), Warefare will get more expensive.

As some said before, the Euro prices are rather good. I have a FLGS which (more or less) sticks to the USD/EURO exchange rates and not selling the boxes 1:1 as some of the big shops do, so I don't have to use internet shops to get better prices.

Cheers,

Ghrik

paradiddlebob said:

Hey fellas!

paradiddlebob said:

Can you tell me/us what do use?

Sevej said:

I play Warmachine+Hordes with 20~35 miniatures. 40K right now uses the same number of Infantry miniatures 30~40, but, of course, 6~8 vehicles/tanks.

Infinity is a different breed, you play normally with ~10 miniatures.

But this Warfare, as I've read through some battle reports (the one listed on BGG and in this forum also) this is more like a squad based game, a light 40K type of game, maybe with more miniatures (infantry) than Warmachine.

Sevej said:

What I meant was simple, you can play with the contents of the box in both cases. You're only seeing the glass half-empty and I will contest with the glass half-full... GW provides you a box with a full squad with options to have both Special and Heavy Weapon (1 each), just like Dust. But if you want to customize your army GW provides an array of options IN ADDITION to those in the box set.

You've said you want to equip your Tacts with other HvWp than Missile Launchers. You're right, you can equip your squad with other weapons besides those who came in the box. Can you do the same in Dust?! Can you change the weapons of your Commanders?!

Also, you can do the same you do in Dust Tactics Walkers to 40K Walkers, applying magnets or using long pins to change weapons.

As you can see, I can also write a biased opinion in favour of 40K game. But that's not the reason why I came here. I came here to know if FFG intents to produce better quality miniatures that fit their pricing range. I don't care if I can throw my miniatures against the wall and they don't break, I simply dislike to see bent barrels/antennas/stuff, and the "feel" of the soft plastic. And I don't feel the pricing of Dust Tactics infantry miniatures justify their materials.

The whole discussion about prices is absolute bogus, when noone mention the good rules of the game compared to others in the industry. The rules in addition with the great miniature line is that what really counts for a Dust fan.

oDESGOSTO noone forces you to invest into Dust Warfare or Tactics, if you are lucky with price and qualtiy of other games like Warmaster or 40k. But you have to recognize that you have a different gaming and miniature philosophy than most of the Dust fans. Excessive price nitpicking and odd comparisions of plastic softness/hardness is NOT among the things a dust fan wants from a good tabletop game. Its more about playing a game with an excellent "easy-to-learn-and-hard-to-master" ruleset.

A big draw for me was that Dust removes all the "hardcore" customization. Your units have what they have. This also reduces the clutter of rules that you have to worry about. I think of it more like Magic. You build a deck of cards, the cards themselves don't change. You just use them in different combinations to create the theme of your deck (army)

The simplicity of the rules is worth $ to me.

FFG already produces quality miniatures to fit their pricing for a Dust player. As a US player, I cannot compare the Euro situation. But having played just about every game out there at least once, I can tell you that I have never been able to accumulate more for less money as I have with Dust. The plastic quality is not a concern to me. It's not nearly as soft as the AT43 stuff and holds detail moderately well.

Every game isn't for everyone. Possibly your tastes will not fit what Dust can offer and that's ok too.

blkdymnd said:

I'm curious as I never had an AT-43 figure in hands, is there really a such a big difference?