I had been assuming that Forgotten Plans trumps Fear of Winter, but in a game last night the situation came up and the wording of FoW made me less sure. It seems to me that FoW creates a lasting effect on the player and that FP will not actually blank that until after the effect is in place. That said, I'm pretty sure it is being played as if it does stop FoW's effect, so I wanted to bring it up. Any thoughts?

japandy42 said:

SInce Forgotten Plans does not blank other plots during the Plot phase, when Fear of Winter is revealed (along with all other plots), it has its text. At which point, yes, it creates a lasting effect. Note that FoW says that its effect ends "until you reveal a new plot card" not "so long as this card is not blank." It is a lasting effect, not a persistent effect, and I think therein lies the difference.

If a character had this effect, and then that character was killed, it wouldn't matter because the effect already activated. Or, to look at it a different way, if it was an effect on an event card, the effect would work even though the event goes into the discard.

Same basic idea.

KristoffStark said:

I would agree with this if FoW said "When revealed....". Since it doesn't, I think it is a constant effect that is gone once it is blanked. I use Feast or Famine as an example of a plot that uses When revealed to create a lasting effect that remains even if blanked. If you choose the gold, then later blank FoF, you still cannot initiate challenges. To me it is the same as Frozen Solid'ing Winterfell Castle, it doesnt have an initiation point of 'when revealed', and if blanked, your chars no longer get the +1.

just my 2c.

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KristoffStark said:

I'm sorry, but I don't think that is correct. The effect of FoW is not a lasting effect, it is a constant effect (like Song of Summer or Threat from the North), and as such, blanking the text will be effective.

FAQ p.14 tells us that only actions and passive effects can create lasting effects, and, lacking a point of initiation, FoW's effect is neither. It is active from the moment it is revealed, and that makes it a constant effect.

All constant plot effects implicitly have the limitation "until you reveal a new plot card". Why the designer decided to make that limitation explicit on FoW, I don't know. Maybe they thought the card would create confusion if it only read "Each player cannot play or put into play more than 1 card from his or her hand" without a reference to the time frame of the effect.

EDIT: ~Dammit! Bested by Mr. Harrison yet again!

hehe, ill just be happy if our answer is correct. everytime i think i have these rules down i get a question like this wrong.

Ratatoskr said:

Maybe I'm not just finding it, but I cannot see a place where it is explained that the effects on plot cards are not passive effects, and thus are not capable of creating a lasting effect.

I would suggest that the limitation on FoW is explicit for just this reason. It is phrased as a lasting effect, and I can find no reason not to treat it like one.

dcdennis said:

I see where you're coming from with the "When revealed.." notation, and the comparison to other persistent effects, but it's that FoW includes an ability duration that makes me think the other might be possible.

Alright, after having spent some time with the FAQ and a search function (glad I wasn't doing it with a printed copy), I have found the notations that specify that a "passive ability" must have as specified point of initiation, thus making the ability of FoW not a passive ability, and not eligible for creating a lasting effect.

Blech.

I must indeed amend my previous interpretation that, although FoW seems to create an exception to this via its duration notation, the general rules of the game prohibit the creation of such an exception.

Though that does leave the "golden rule" that a card that seems to override the base mechanics of the game may do so.

Hmm.

I can't help but feel that, one way or another, the wording in this particular instance was written very poorly.

KristoffStark said:

The point is not that it includes a duration, the point is that it doesn't have a point of initiation. That makes it a constant effect, not a passive effect. All constant plot effects have a duration: until you reveal a new plot card. The difference between FoW and other constant plot effects is that this limitation is stated explicitly on FoW.

Think about this: Hear me Roar says "Characters without an INT icon get -1 STR." Would it work any different if it said "Until you reveal a new plot card, Characters without an icon get -1 STR."? So, whether the limitation "until you reveal a new plot card" is written on the card or not, the effects work in exactly the same way. Rules-wise, it does not make any difference at all.

Effects on plot cards usually fall into one of four categories (if there are more, I can't think of them right now):

1) Responses. This is exceedingly rare; Outwit is the only one I can think of right now.

2) Constant effects. They take effect immediately (FAQ p.7, §2.2), they don't have a point of initiation, and thus cannot be canceled (FAQ p.8, §3.10). They affect the game as long as the plot card is revealed (whether it says so on the plot card or not), and they can be blanked.

3) "When revealed..." passive effects

4) Other passive effects. These are quite rare; examples include The First Snow of Winter and Battle of Oxcross.

The main difference between constant and passive effects is that the latter have a point of initiation, while the former do not. The point of initiation of "When revealed..." effects is the revealing of the card. The point of initiation for First Snow is the initiation of the first challenege of the round. For Oxcross, it is the End of the Challenge phase. The Fury plots also have passive effects, which go off after a certain type of challenge is won. All these plots tell you when their effects are resolved. FoW does not.
Passive effects can create lasting effects (as Dennis says, Feast or Famine does), while constant effects cannot. Again, see FAQ p.14: "Effects that last for longer than a single action are considered lasting effects. Both actions and passive abilities can be lasting effects."

EDIT: I wrote all this before I saw your reply above. Still, the main point is: The fact that FoW explicitly states a duration does not make it work any different than if it didn't. The duration is probably just there for clarity. It doesn't make the card work differently.

Thanks for figuring all of this out on your own and contributing to my cure for carpel tunnel.

Rat has the right of it. FoW is a constant effect and is therefore only active while it is the revealed plot card. There are perhaps better ways it could have been worded, but the thing to recognize is that "until you reveal a new plot card" is the same thing as "while this card is active" when it comes to plots - which is the "duration" of all constant effects.

Interesting side note with Forgotten Plans vs. Fear of Winter: you can play/put into play just one card during the plot phase when they are revealed. Then, you can play whatever you want while they are both active outside the plot phase. But if Forgotten Plans is replaced, FoW kicks in again and you get just one more card from your hand (after the point it becomes active again). Point being, the limit from Forgotten Plans "resets" if it is blanked, then restored.