Corbon said:

Soar is a defensive ability, it adds 4 to the range needed to hit it. Fear says the hero must spend 1 surge, soar says the hero needs 4 additional range. both sound like effects that make it harder for the hero to hit, and so I'd say they are both defensive abilities.

Your second line is weird. Are you really playing with some sort of 'determine where the attack fell' rule? if there isn't sufficient range to hit the space targeted then the attack misses just as if the attack had rolled a miss. I don't know if you just house ruled your own system there or where the confusion you have is but that's definantly not how I read the rules.

Your third lines example: hits beastman, misses golem. Seems simple to me. It had the range to the beastman but not the golem.

I think you are the one confused. We're not complicating thing at all, we are simply playing with the rules that make the most sense mechanically. All of your examples in your last post its simply a matter of is there sufficient range without sorcery and its not that hard to determine. Immune only applies to the golem, and immune should be checked before range. Not after and thus only damage as was stated earlier in this post.

If anyone is still confused: Immune to sorcery means no sorcery anytime. attacks against a space are still effected by the abilities of the creatures in that space. A single creatures abilities shouldn't effect the attack's effect on any other creature (except where OBVIOUSLY stated in the rules such as area attacks and dodge).

First things first:

I do not want to antagonize anyone here, if someone feels pounded, it was not my intent.

IMHO I believe that rules (almost any, not only Descent rules) are somewhat ambiguous. But I also believe it cannot be done that rules for a game are completely concise within a normal cost-time-effort-ratio - which every company has to subscribe to if they wish to survive. Rules for more important things (usually called laws ) are normally better formulated but even they are often u for debate - otherwise we would not have so many lawyers.

The argument about whether Sorcery may add range or damage to any attack vs an immune-to-Sorcery (usually called Ironskin) figure can actually be boiled down to:

FAQ Question

Is a figure with an immunity to a special ability (like Sorcery) completely immune to the whole ability, or is it immune only to effects of that ability which apply to it directly?

An example of Ironskin vs Sorcery might be included here.

This is a subtle difference which has caused this whole thread to errupt into somewhat less than friendly overtones.

IMHO Sorcery is completely negated vs an immune figure, affecting both range and damage effects.

My first little argument PRO negation:

Sorcery is listed under Special Abilities in the basic game (page 23, Rules of Play).

Ironskin is also a Special Ability listed in the Special Abilities section of the Well of Darkness (and later) expansions.

One of these abilities (Ironskin) states an immunity to another ability (Sorcery). It did not state an immunity to only partial effects of the ability. Thus Ironskin completely negates the effect of Sorcery vs an Ironskin figure - and only vs that figure. It did not state anything about this effect being logical, congruent with the rest of the rules, or some such. It just states it is immune to it.

Currently (without an FAQ) IMHO any effect that uses any ability (!) to which a figure is immune cannot affect the figure with that specific ability, either directly or indirectly.

Second argument PRO negation

Sorcery is a Special Ability which allows you to add range or damage. Thus a figure which is using the special ability Sorcery for range is using it for its complete attack. For this see the original description for Sorcery in the basic rules (page 23, Rules of Play). Sorcery states :"After making an attack roll, a figure with Sorcery may add 1 to either its range or damage..."

Thus, at this stage you decide whether you use Sorcery (not an ability which is called Additional Range or Damage) to enhance your attack (either for range or for damage). This is before you apply power enhancements, surges, or any other effects. Thus your attack from now on includes Sorcery effects, not just additional range and/or damage.

Then, in step 5 of the attack determination you still have to choose whether you use power enhancements, surges or other effects for additional range or damage. If you do not, then IMHO an attack which does not have sufficient range due to having achieved the required range only by using Sorcery added range still misses completely. Any range or damage from Sorcery is reduced to zero (note: not all damage, only the range or damage component from Sorcery). Thus, to affect a figure with Ironskin you would have to use other means achieve the required range (and normally this would reduce the damage).

To demonstrate what I wanted to say with immunity to an ability let's construct a case where a figure with an ability called a ghost-hunter attacks a figure with the Ghost ability. This Ghost-hunter ability makes the figure immune to the Ghost ability (note: this is not the same as : ignore the immunity of figures vs non-adjacent melee attacks or the ignore the passing through of Ghost figures).

Thus would this figure with the ghost-hunter ability be able to attack a figure possessing the Ghost ability with a melee attack from an adjacent space?

Yes.

Could the figure with the Ghost-hunter ability walk through a figure with the Ghost ability?

No.

In both cases the immunity to the Ghost ability affects all aspects of an ability, not only parts of it.

Thus I am a firm supporter of the case : Immunity to a special ability includes all aspects of a listed Special Ability, not only partial aspects.

Again I do not wish to pound anyone, just wanted to offer my two cents worth.

Neostrider said:

Again, numbers added for the benefit of following replies (letters added to clarify what the numbers appeared to refer to).

1. We have clearly different definitions. I take 'defensive ability' to mean an ability that expreessly affects attacks against the target. The abilities I listed do that. Soar actually affects general map play, and as a by-product of that, has a side affect on a certain part of combat. It does not activate solely when an attack is under way. This difference is not particularly important until you try to link a 'general' ability (Soar) and match it with 'defensive' abilities (which only activate during an attack). At least, you don;t seem to think it akes any difference, but it is a clear and fundamental difference that relates to my whole point.

2. You claimed that an attack vs a square with both a beastman and golem (which needed sorcery to reach that square) would hit the beastman, but not the golem. Its one attack, that targets a space. It either hits that space or doesn't. For it to hit the beastman yet not hit the golem, then it must both hit the space they are in (with Sorcery added) and not hit the space they are in (with sorcery cancelled). Therefore, logically, the attack has both hit the space and come up short - hitting a closer space. The attack didn;t miss the original space because it still hit the beastman. I'm not claining it should hit two different spaces, thats crazy! But it is the necessary logical conclusion of your statement.

3. You missed the point. It hits the golem without using sorcery, if it uses sorcery it hits the beastman+Golem.

A _ _ G1 BG
_ _ _ G2 G3

Range without sorcery is 3. Range with Sorcery is 4. Target space is BG (Beastman+Golem). Either the attack can use sorcery and hits BG, or it can not and can not reach BG, though it would still reach the Golem at G1 - ie the Golem would be hit even without sorcery. So does the beatsman gain the benefit of the Golems immunity to Sorcery? Or does the golems immunity to the Sorcery part of the attack make him immune to the entire attack ?(in which case does his immunity to the pierce part of an attack make him immune to the entre attack?)

4. You come uo with a conclusion here that has two mutually exclusive parts.
It has been generally agreed that Ironskin should benefit only the Ironskinned. You yourself say so. "A single creatures abilities shouldn't effect the attack's effect on any other creature". If an ability affects the range of an attack, then by definition it affects whether that attack can hit that space at all. You also write "attacks on a space are still affected by the abilities of creatures in that space". If the attack fails to hit that space, due to an ability of a creature in that space, then the attack fails to hit any figure in that space by definition (fails to hit that space!). Therefore those figures have benefited from the ability of another figure - an ability we have already expressly agreed should not benefit other figures.

Being immune to Sorcery means just that. Sorcery does not affect you. However, that does not prevent Sorcery affecting something else which expressly does not involve you (targeting of a space). Sorcery spent on improving the range of an attack does not target a figure in the space being attacked, so immunity to that Sorcery does nothing. Immunity to stuff not targeting you does nothing.

RustyDust said:

First, don't worry about pounding. That was a comment by me, in bad taste for which I have apologised, expressly aimed at Poobaloo who has history. (Poobaloo, sorry, not badmouthing you again here, just explaining).

I draw your attention to two points.

1. What benefit is immunity to something which does not affect you? You still have the immunity, it just does nothing for you. The range of an attack is completely independent of any figure which may get hit by the attack. Range is determined space to space and an attack explicitly targets a space, not a figure(s).
So you are immune to the sorceried extra range? Who cares, the sorcery affects the attack itself, and the space targeted, not you. That little glowing burst of power on the bowstring - you're immune to that, it will bounce off your Iron skin. Too bad its happening 20 yards away, affecting the way that arrow is being shot out of the bow and not affecting you! OTOH, that glowing nimbus of energy on the arrowhead (extra damage), thats going to disperse harmlessly off your Ironskin. (While thematic reasoning is pointless in descent, I need an example to get through to some people...)

2. If immunity to sorcery affect the range of an attack, then it also benefits the non-immune figure that are (or would be) affected by that attack. If you though that non-ironskinned figures should get the benefit of ironskin on a different figure, then you would be the first to state so publicly in this forum (to my knowledge).

I think part of the miscommunications is that in the faq and in the rules:

Q: Can heroes attack an empty square? For example,
could a blast effect be centered in an empty square or
could a hero fire his Staff of Knowledge off into a corner
to burn the overlord’s threat?
A: Yes. However, if after spending surges there are no
valid targets in the area of the attack (hero or monster), the
entire attack is canceled without effect. This means that
if the blast is not large enough, the attack fails, and the
Staff of Knowledge must actually hit something to use its
ability.

So the question is if I target a blast attack at a space between a golem and a beastman, and have to use sorcery to get to that space, does the attack affect the golem and the beastman, or does it only affect the beastman? (I would say only affects the beastman)

The from the list of answered questions at the top of the forum:

Area of Effect attack and Dodge.
An area attack is made on a group of characters. The attack die are rolled and one Hero uses Dodge. Does the original roll take effect on the other Heroes, or does the newly rolled attack affect all Heroes?

The new roll effects all the targets.

This seems to insinuate that an attack is an all or nothing, it either effects all or none. So using this as an example with my statement above "golem and beastman" then it would seem that the attack would miss both. Since if one target effects the attack it effects it for all targets of the attack. And since the sorcery is required to get range then the attack would miss because of the ironskin on the golem.

Corbon said:

Wow, I still don't know where you're getting your rules from. Numbered:

1: From the rulebook

"Soar: Any figure with Soar is considered to be flying above the ground, and the range to and from it is increased by four. A monster with soar cannot normally be the target of a melee attack. However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until after the attack goes off, at which point the monster flies back up. Heroes may use interrupt attacks (even melee attacks, if in range) to attack a monster while it is swooping"

Seems like they had it in their mind as a defensive ability. Even left a Paragraph in the rule book about when a monster loses that abiltiy. Its very clearly a form of defense for some creatures. It increases the ranged needed to hit them and they cannot be hit by melee attacks (usually). Side effects on combat? I think it very clearly has a direct effect on combat, being that its sole purpose is the change the ranges on attacks and ignores melee attacks.

2. You're too hung up on the idea that just because the beastman is getting hit the golem MUST be getting hit. Where does it say this? How is the situation any different for a creature with soar? Two targets, one square, only one gets hit. The golem's immunity to sorcery affects the attack directed against HIM, and so the attack misses. The beastman has no immunity and so the range was sufficient to hit the him.

3. Here's your biggest confusion. In the attacking section of the rule book it clearly states that step 3 you count range to the target space. Step 4, it clearly says that you count the range rolled and you compare it to the range counted in step 3. If you have enough, you hit. Else you miss unless you can get more in step 5. So range to hit the square is bought during the same step used to buy damage. BOTH HAPPEN DURING THE SAME PHASE. In the case of the golem you didn't have range to hit the golem in the square targeted and so you missed him. doesn't matter if you hit another square the golem was in.

Here's the simple answer. Beastman is hit, golem is missed. You targeted the space, then you count range, and from that point on you have all the info you need and the attack is no longer on the space. The beastman doesn't gain the golem's immunity, and the golem's immunity saves it from being hit because the attacker didn't have range to hit the golem. You're question about does it hit because the golem is still within range ignores the fact that you've already counted range needed and failed.

4.You're still argueing that somehow attacking the floor beneath the enemy hits the enemy. Space is only targeted for range and seeing who is effected by the attack. You could use your hitting the space arguement to ignore all the abilities by your reasoning.

Corbon said:

What is so confusing about this? If you use Sorcery, sure you can hit both, but then the Golem is immune. You roll the dice, and damage the Beastman.

If you wish to fire it without Sorcery, then you can reach the Golem, and damage it. In that case, the Beastman is too far. He cannot be hit. He did not gain the benefit of Ironskin, he gained the benefit of a big Golem standing in front of him, that the Hero preferred to attack instead. The Hero very well could have hit the Beastman if he wanted, using his SORCERY, an attack to which the Golem is immune.

In this case, the Hero might want to roll an extra black power die, and hope for some range. If he gets it, he could conceivably hit both without Sorcery. But then you'd do less damage to the Beastman, so most likely the best play would be to use your Sorcery, and damage the Beastman more, rather than do just a little damage (if any) to both.

The Hero cannot simultaneously choose to both use and not use sorcery, on the same turn, to be able to hit an immune monster, and do extra damage to a non-immune monster. That is silly. It's not a Beastman getting Ironskin, it's the Hero choosing what he wants to hit, and how hard, using what abilities.

-mike

Would someone please not roll a "surge" for this Undying thread.

Neostrider said:

1. You utterly miss the point. Soar explicity tells us that in order to affect the figure with soar, range must be increased by 4. Soar affects the attack, in the count of how much range is required in order to reach the target space (and affect the soaring figure high above it, "...range both to and from it is increased ..."). Ironskin explicity affects the figure with ironskin ( A figure with ironskin is immune to... ). It does not affect the attack. It 'kicks in' when the attack actually affects the Ironskinned figure - after the attack has already been determined to be a success or not (step 4).

2+3. Ok some progress at last! I do not think for one minute that the attack hits two different spaces, or that if it comes up short in range to the target it hits a 'closer' space instead. But those were the effects of what you are arguing. I was pointing out how silly that is.
Attack is attacker to space. You hit the space or you don't. We agree on this, as best I can tell.
So if the space is hit, the beastman is hit and the golem is hit. If the space is not, then neither is hit. That's very simple, right?
If you hit the space, the attack affects everything in it (or more in the case of Blast, Sweep and Breath, but lets ignore those as their damage is reduced to zero by ironskin so we don't care). Then, once the attack has hit the space, and affects the figures in it, the 'defenses' of those figures come into play, namely in this case, Ironskin. (Don't bring Soar in here, it operates differently and has already 'operated' earlier).
Now that the Ironskinned figure is being affected, his immunity kicks in. No pierce, no bleed, no sorcery etc. This has no affect on the beastman. The space has already been hit, the attack has progressed from being an attack on a space and is now affecting each figure in that space individually.

The beastman takes his lumps.
The Golem takes his lumps. However, the Golem has some immunities, so any lumps caused by those immunties bounce of. No Pierce. No Bleed. No Sorcerous damage. No Sorcerous Range. Hey, wait a minute, does that make the attack miss? No. That attack has already hit, it is already affecting the Golem. Until now I get the feeling we are in general agreement. Here we diverge.
You appear to say, "since the Sorcerous range has no affect, the entire attack has no affect".
I say, "since the sorcerous range is not affecting the golem (it affected the attack and its ability to hit the space, which has already been concluded satisfactorily) being immune to it is cool but pointless. So the attack loses range. Big Deal, Range is no longer an issue. The attack has been defined as a success already and is already affecting the golem".
The attack cannot both affect the golem (and therefore have Ironskin kicking in) and not affect the golem (because ironskin has kicked in). Thats an impossible loop. Attack affects Golem, Ironskin kicks in, attack does not affect golem, Ironskin is not relevant and does not apply, attack affects golem, ironskin kicks in, attack does not affect golem...

Further, the immunity to Sorcery is the same as the immunity to Pierce, Bleed etc. If immunity to Sorcery causes the whole attack to fail due to active Sorcery, then it also causes the whole attack to fail due to active Pierce, Bleed etc. this is patently wrong. The immunity is not to the entire attack, its to those parts of the attack. The non sorcerous, non piercing, non bleeding etc parts of the attack still affect the Ironskinned figure.

4. You say it yourself. Space is used for range and seeing who is affected. The hitting the space argument does not invalidate any abilities, because each ability has a specific time and place when it applied. Soar is applied at the determining range step. Ironskin is applied when the (successful) attack on the space affects the figures in that space (blah blah Blast etc). Fear is applied to the attack itself, at any time you like. Shadowcloak is applied when the attack affects the figures in the space (you can hit a shadowcloaked figure from far away, but it is pointless as " The figure does not suffer any wounds or effects from attacks originating farther than one space away "). Undying is applied when a figure is killed. Black Curse is applied when an attack counts its Range and again when an attack counts its damage (it affects the attacker, not the defender). Etc. Etc.

poobaloo said:

I agree. The attack hits a single space. Sorcery is either used or not. Either the attack hits the space with both, using sorcerous range, or it does not.

You appear to be saying though, that the Golems immunity to Sorcery makes him immune to the entire attack. Thats not true, IMO. The golem is immune to Sorcery, not sorcerous attacks. The Golem is immune to Pierce, not Piercing attacks. The Golem is immune to Bleed, not Bleeding attacks. Its only the sorcery that the golem is immune to. The rest of the attack still operates normally.
The sorcery that has been used on range - thats done and dusted now. It wasn't affecting the Golem so the immunity didn't kick in and the attack hit the space with both. Thus the Golem is affected by the attack.
Alternatively, the immunity did kick in and the attack failed to hit - thus the beastman benefited from the immmunity, since the attack failed to hit.

Acolyte Rivan said:

You have two options for a surge.
1. Introduce a competent argument.
2. Prevent arguments with holes big enough to drive a Mack truck through being posted.

Summary:

Things that are generally agreed (I think).
1. Attacks target a space, and hit a space.
2. Ironskin is personal and only affects the Ironskinned, not other figures.
3. Immunity to an ability is not immunity to an entire attack that uses that ability, its just immunity to that ability's part of that attack (not sure if everyone agrees to this yet).

These three things become totally inconsistent when Ironskin is used to cancel ranged portions of an attack.
They stay consistent when Ironskin is not used to prevent sorcerous range.

I disagree with your first point. An attack targets a space, and hits the monsters in it. Thus immunity DOES apply to range to hit. That's the arguement I've been trying to make.

To sum up, apparently our long lengthy posts are argueing between "Range is counted and dealt with and THEN the monster is brought into the equation" or "Range is counted, then monster abilities are checked, then dice rolled and dealt with at the same time as damage". I'm option 2. To further why I think my decision is option 2: step 4 clearly says that during step 5 (the step abilities are most dealt with) you can tweak the range to determine if the attack hits. Also, during step 2 Soar is checked to add to the range when counting in the first place. Since both are abilities that are on the monster's card I think the game expects you to check the monster's abilities BEFORE declaring the attack had sufficient range to hit.

After 6 pages of debate, one thing seems to be clear: one side will not sway the other. Now I'm adding more to a thread which can only be resolved through a FAQ. Then this post will be resurrected once again by the winning side, loudly proclaiming: "I told you so."

Neostrider said:

That is a much better argument, although I disagree with your conclusions.

Different abilities are clearly checked (or more accurately, used/kick in) at different times. Soar is definitely and obviously used at the checking of range. Soar is not used after an attack has hit the space and affected the Soaring figure. Equally, Pierce is definitely and obviously used when the Total Damage is applied to the figure and not used when the range is being counted. Ironskin specifically affects the Ironskinned figure, not attacks, not ranges, the Ironskinned figure. therefore, it is used when the Ironskinned figure becomes part of the equation, and not before.

I'd reword your two options thus.

1. Abilities (monster or creature) are applied at the appropriate step of an attack as indicated by the ability.
2. All abilities apply from the start of an attack.

I'm in favour of 1. for three reasons.

Firstly, because different abilities are written clearly to target different things or act in different ways. Black Curse affects enemy figures. Fear affects the attacker. Soar affects the range calculation. Shadowcloak affects the owning figure (who becomes unaffected by some attacks). Ironskin and Ox Tattoo affect the owner. Pierce affects the calculation between the Total Damage of an attack and the Final Damage of an attack. Etc. Etc.

Secondly, if all abilities apply at the start of an attack then it follows that those abilities affect the entire attack. Thus, if one figure has an immunity to pierce, all figures get the immunity to pierce. We have already agreed, generally, that this is not the case.

Thirdly, you don't always know which figures will be affected by an attack at the beginning. If a character has a blast weapon for example, then a Demon 3 spaces from the target space may or may not be affected by the blast. If we don't know, then we can't apply that Demon's Fear at the beginning of the attack. The Demon's Fear ability does not kick in at the point of determining range - it cannot kick in until after range has been calculated, after the target space has been designated as successfully hit (or not) and after some surges have been spent to expand the blast enough to include the Demon. Clearly, abilities are applied at appropriate times, not all at the beginning of an attack or before range is determined.

If we determine that option 1 is correct, then when we look at Ironskin we find that Ironskin affects only the owner. So Ironskin's immunities are irrelevant until something actually affects the owner and the owners Ironskin gets to 'act'. At that stage we are well past range being determined and succeeding or not (if it did not, then the figure is not affected and ironskin does not act). Ironskin kicks in when determining Total damage. Sorcery used for damage falls off now. Bleed etc fails now. Damage from Blast etc is reduced to zero now. This method also has the desirable benefit of having Ironskin only affect/protect the Ironskinned, something everyone agrees (I believe) should be the case.

So sorcery explicitly states it happens after the dice are rolled, but ironskin doesn't have any explicit statement when it is applied. The rules are also unclear as to when a defending monster's abilities take effect, after sufficient range or after declaring their square as the target.

I guess I just assume that an attack on a space is ALSO an attack on the monster and so the monster's abilities are checked. I thought the attack on a space ruling was only to determine if an attack hits multiple people, attacking empty squares for AoE, and tracing LoS to large creatures. I also don't think that applying the dice roll seperatly to each monster in the target square isn't that hard to process. To clarify, one dice roll, one list of effects and how the player chooses to use them (so he decides sorcery once), but then that result is applied seperately to each monster. Both range and damage. I also think that result would be true to the effects of ironskin and it's purpose. Your example of Pierce would be close to this result, since a monster with armor 1 would have the pierce effect play out differently than a monster with armor 3.

And anyone upset we're still debating this, we're trying to find an agreement that seems fair to both of us for clear reasons and examples instead of waiting on our hands for an FAQ. There hasn't been an FAQ in awhile, some forum people obviously disagree with a few FAQ answers so the one we get may not be what we were expecting, and I'm guessing Corbon probably plays as often as I do so an up-to-date answer would greatly help if it came up at a current game. I don't treat this like a flame war, I'd like to come up with a fair answer that's in spirit with the game, I think Corbon does too.

Neostrider said:

But this part I totally agree with.
BTW, I wouldn't care which way a FAQ answer went, I'd still use it. But in the absence of a clarification/change from a FAQ ruling I'd like to know what to answer when the question gets asked. I am confident what the correct answer is, but its a pain in the butt, not to mention a bad showing for a great game, when someone asks a question and you can only answer "well I think this but others think that and there is no clear answer".

So...now I'm confused. I though Corbon's argument was all hinging on spaces getting targeted, and it sounds like he's saying "your attack must match 1 range value for any given space". However, it doesn't make any sense when you stack a Soaring and Non-Soaring monster in the same space, since one monster's range required would have to take precedence for that concept to work.

Also, minor wry comment: can't the KISS principle be applied to both "hitting creatures in a space" and "immunity to Sorcery"?

Corbon said:

Finally, attacks don't hit spaces...they target spaces. There's kind of a weird and subtle difference. Attacks must hit creatures, and although you target spaces to determine where attacks go, the hit is made against creatures, and the attack calculations (range, damage, special effects) are all made against creatures. This is why Soar, Ironskin, and Elevation rules are all written from the figure's point of view, and not the space. Notice for the blast FAQ answer, the attack targets a space but fizzles if you cannot hit any creatures. I believe there are multiple situations that could lead to two figures in the same space being at different ranges, and they might all be in RtL (I think this is kinda funny). I can think of 2 such situations: Soaring/non-Soaring monsters in the same space and small non-elevated monster in the same space as a large monster elevated via other spaces. In those situations, Corbon, I don't really understand how to apply your "attack a space" metric.

I'd say the thread's calmed down to a dialectic at this point. Neostrider and Corbon have refined the discussion quite well. Kudos.

Corbon said:

Um. Yeah.

Golems are immune to Sorcery, but not Sorcerous attacks? Come on. What is a "Sorcerous attack" and where is that distinction, other than a word game you're making up to try to say Golems are not immune to Sorcerous attacks cuz Sorcerous attacks are in some way different than attacks made with Sorcery - which Golems are immune to!

The Golem is not immune to the entire attack. The Golem can very well be hit, if the attacker does not use Sorcery. If he uses Sorcery to hit the Golem, the Golem is immune! If you want to hit a Golem that's immune to Blast, dont use Blast! If you want to hit a Golem that's immune to Sorcery, dont use Sorcery!

The ability does not say immune to Sorcery but not Sorcerous attacks, that is such a legaleez thing to say. You're just coming up with new words here to differentiate an ability into two abilities, one of which he's immune to, and the other of which he's not. That's rules lawyering at its finest.

-mike

Corbon meant attacks that hit the space targted because of sorcery. so his definition of sorcerous attacks would be an attack that NEEDED sorcery to have sufficient range.

His rationale is this: I attack square A. I don't have range to hit square A, so I haven't done anything to the golem yet. I spend sorcery to get the range needed. NOW the immunity to sorcery kicks in because I'm hitting the golem finally, and I can't use whatever I had left over.

sounds about right corbon?

I'm having a tough time accepting that defensive abilities would only kick in after a figure gets hit instead of, say, targeted .

This might be a different way of thinking about it, and God I am so sorry if this ends up making it worse.

Is it possible to target a Blast attack into a space containing a figure with Shadowcloak that is adjacent to 3 Beastmen for example? Now since the Blast targets the space and Shadowcloak being what it is, does that make the Blast attack miss the 3 Beastmen or does the Blast still go off? It seems somewhat the same to me as the Ironskin/Sorcery interaction - a defensive capability having no affect on determing if the attack hits the space, but completely affects the results of the attack hitting that space.

I personally would think the Blast would still go off, hit the 3 Beastmen but leave the Shadowcloaked monster alone.

Thundercles said:

Precisely. Defensive abilities (like immunity to something) are always active.

You are targeting the MONSTER. You are not targeting the space. Range is measured to the space, per all the statements above, to prevent someone trying to measure to a dragon wingtip for example which might be 2 spaces closer. So you measure to the space, because the spaces are a constant measure. You are still attacking the monster, with an ability he's clearly and concisely (and not ambiguously) immune to.

Corbon, you asked me to reply to your statement about the Ogre and Beastman in the same spot, and that does not create any paradoxes. Why do you still think that situation is problematic?

He has a problem (and i think I do too) with your statement because it sounds like when you (poobaloo) decide if it hits the defensive abilities of the monster in the target space is going to apply to all the monsters that would be affected by the attack.

I like Remy's example: Targeting the space is important because targeting the space avoids the defensive abilities of the monster. Your ruling sounds like you couldn't target the tree, but I agree with remy that the attack should still hit the beastmen.

I look at it like this:

Target a space

Count range to the space. This is the range needed to hit.

Then roll dice.

Then decide how the attacker's abilities will be distributed.

Resolve the attack on a per monster basis. These can modify range of attack, damage of attack, effects of attack, range needed to 'hit,' and immunities to damage, everything.

In this order of operations Soar, Sorcery, Ironskin, everything would be considered during the 5th step, and would determine BOTH if the attack had range and damage in the same stage as everything else. I think the rules as written intended on this order but the wording of the step's is confusing. Step 4 in the basic rulebook clearly states that step 5 can change the range.

I like Remy's example, too, because we've all agreed that Shadowcloak and Ironskin are figure-based defenses, not general defenses (like dodge). I'm not sure if it has any application outside of showing how figure based defenses should work, however.

Neostrider said:

Can you clarify what you mean here? How does the defensive ability of a Golem affect a Beastman standing in one of the spaces? As stated before, the attacking player must choose A) he wants to attack with Sorcery - an attack that would do more damage to the Beastman, but none to the Golem (cuz the Sorcery was used to get a successful hit, and he's immune to such), or B) he can attack without Sorcery, and have a chance at hitting both - but do less damage. The Beastman in this case does take less damage, but not cuz the Golem gave him Ironskin, but because the player attacking is choosing not to use his Sorcery in the attack, cuz he prefers to be able to damage the Golem too.

Neostrider said:

Agreed! You're also deciding in this last step, say, if you wish to use Sorcery to gain range. If you do, then that gained range cannot create a hit on a Golem. Maybe you can hit other things that have not the immunity, but you cannot hit the Golem.

Neostrider said:

Oddly enough, I agree with all your points, but dont see how this should make the Ironskin not work. If you've added range, by use of Sorcery, then you can affect a Beastman but not a Golem, even if they're in the same space. You determine the success of the attack, establish if you're using Sorcery for range, and based on that, you may only be able to actually damage one of two creatures, the one that's not immune.

This agrees with the rules, and makes sense. If two people stand beside each other, and one is immune to fire and the other not, and they are engulfed in a ball of fire, one will take damage and the other not. If a Golem and a Beastman stand in the same space, and someone fires Sorcery unto them, and the Golem is immune but the Beastman is not, then the Beastman takes damage.