Why isn't the Empire raiding Norsca or the surrounding lands? The north coast gets raided but empire never raids back?

Why are Marienburg and Eerengrad not part of the Empire?

jh

Emirikol said:

I only know about Marienburg.

It started slowly around 2301 after the chaos incursion. The last Baron of Westerland, Paulus van der Maacht, died without heir, then many noble families claimed to rule over the region, to the point that several Elector counts started to gather armies. Magnus, seeing the danger of a civil war, took for good an offer from a committee representing the wealthiest merchants of Marienburg: Magnus could refuse to appoint anyone and instead let Marienburg be governed by a directorate comprising the greatest of its Merchant Houses and temples. Business would go on as it always had - taxes would be collected, trade goods would flow into and out of the Empire, and Imperial peace and unity would be preserved. Over the next century the Directorate concentrated more and more power in their hands, loosening the ties that bound them to the Empire. First, the Merchant Houses gained the right to arm and maintain large private militias, ostensibly to deal with the pirates of Reavers' Point. After the successful campaigns of 2378, this right was made permanent and the Imperial garrison was withdrawn. Playing on that success, the Directorate offered to take over the maintenance and operations of the Imperial Second Fleet, which had been stationed in Marienburg for over a thousand years. The financially strapped Emperor Leopold was only too
happy to agree, freeing the funds he needed to fight wars to the east and put down revolts at home. Content to leave the defence of Westerland to its helpful burghers, Leopold swiftly disbanded the Second Fleet. Not surprisingly, its ships and sailors quickly found their way into the private forces of the
Merchant Houses. Finally, the Directors appointed their own excise service in 2399 I.C. to see to the efficient collection of taxes and tariffs and control of smugglers. Every penny was neatly counted and tallied before it reached the Imperial Legation, while the Marienburg excise men proved themselves skilled at catching smugglers. Some said at the time that the innocent people were framed when no real smugglers could be found, just to make things look good. A grateful government in Altdorf allowed the Imperial Excise Service in Marienburg to wither until it did little more than receive the Directorate's payments. The final break with the Empire came at the end of the reign of Emperor Dieter IV, last of the Unfahigers, who imposed heavy taxes on beer and sausages to prosecute his invasion of the Border Princedoms. In the chaos caused by revolts against the taxes and Dieter's deposition in favour of Grand Prince Wilhelm of the Reikland, the Directorate seized the moment and had the Stadsraad declare Westerland's independence. The newly made Emperor Wilhelm III did not take the news quietly. He sent three expeditions against Marienburg. All three were defeated, and the last resulted in the surrender of the Imperial Army at the so-called Battle of the Grootscher Marsh. This also revealed the ties between the Directorate and the Sea Elves, whose wizards were decisive in the final campaign. With threats on all sides, Wilhelm acceded to the inevitable and recognized the independence of what was now proudly calling itself the 'Wasteland'. With the treaty of 20 Kaldezeit 2429, Marienburg was free to chart its course in the world.

The Empire raided surrounded territories more than once in it's history. There is a tale somewhere in the second edition books (I think it was Tome of Corruption) that actually says that Empire folks (or it's predecessors) went to the North to battle. As they drove the people that resided there norther and norther, they ended up extinguishing all the residents. But instead of turning back home, they decided to move on and finish Chaos once and for all. But by entering the Chaos Wastes, they became corrputed, lost their minds, and ended up giving birth to the humans that live there since present times.

Creepy.

I think The Empire doesn't raid Norsca because it would be way too costly, both in terms of lives and of money. There must be a lot of military generals who dream about doing it. But Norscans aren't all enemies. There's a couple of tribes who actually make trade with the Empire, and a lot of Nobles regard Norscans as interesting primitive people.

About Erengard, it is not part of the Empire because it was build from another culture. Why there are borders in any given places, anyway?

Pedro Lunaris said:

That is to say, I didn't quite understand your question, or rather, where does your question comes from...

re Marienburg, aside from Elves, Money and Defensibility, there is also political delicacy. For all that everyone in Empire thinks Marienburg should be part of Empire, ripping up the agreement recognizing it devalues the value of the Empire/Emperor's treaty and agreements. All the Elector Counts have rights and priveleges they gained at this time or that which are patently ridiculous. Once the Emperor starts tearing things up because "it's for the good of the Empire and should never have been done", well were does it stop?

There may also just be a very few clear minded heads thinking "do we really need to be slaughtering each other when the Chaos Hordes may come any time...."

So in Imperial circles the trick is "can we find a legitimate excuse" rather than just take it on.

Rob

I have a conspiracy theory that Mannan is the true god of power in the Empire. The rivers are the lifeblood of almost all trade, communication and military logistics within the empire. And the worshipers of Mannan control those rivers. His followers could easily strategicly starve one or all the provinces with the hault of river trade if their center of worship and wealth in the inderpendant city was threatened.

Regarding the north, what is to be profited by claiming those lands?

Emirikol said:

The Empire has raided Norsca. For example 2513 Valmir von Raukov decides to take the northern fleet and attack Norsca. Raukov came as hero, when he burned Norsca settlements, but at the end this eventually causes mighty revenge in 2515 - Incursion led by Chaos Champion Lord Mortkin (and then Ostland burned).

You have to remember that the Empires fleet isn't that huge. It is needed to guard their coastal areas and settlements. Also part of the fleet is actually stationed in the Reik between Marienburg and Altdorf. And as Pedro Lunaris did mention - It costs very much to make full scale invasions. Also there isn't really any profits there if you considere raiding. Norsca are very poor people. You dont get many riches there and to invade the land and trying to hold it wont be really option either. Norsca is harsh realm.

About Erengrad - I think the Empire folk respect their Kislev neighbours enough not to invade their land. Kislev has always been there between their land and the Chaos Wastes (=Chaos Incursions). A kind of a "bumber" state when new invasion from the north starts.

It should be also said that Marienburg stands as a neutral state between between Empire and Bretonia. It helps dampen the tentation of war between those two. And should one of those countries threaten to invade, the other one would come to defend, just to avoid a potential enemy getting stronger.

The simple answer is because the Empire is a facsimile of the Holy Roman Empire and thus controls the territories that did. Marienburg is the Low Countries which were a geo-political hot potato contested by France, the HRE and Spain as well as attempting to assert their own independence.

Brognir said:

Empire would smoke Bretonnia..hands down, by simple technology and magical superiority imho.

jh

Emirikol said:

It wouldn't be quite that easy. The Empire has better technology, but the Brets have better knights and both have plenty of magic. The Brets are also more unified than the Empire, with the king having more authority than the Emperor. This gives him an advantage when it comes to mustering and controlling his forces.

As for Marienburg, the main issue is money. Any move by the Emperor to retake Marienburg will cripple the Empire's economy. Some of the Elector Counts will doubtless be receiving very large amount of money in order to support rebellions against him. And Marienburg itself is very difficult to take, even without help from the High Elves. I don't think the Emperor has the power to recapture it and even if he did it would be a pyrrhic victory.

The Empire is quite divided (there are minor wars between various Elector states every now and again). The only time they can be reliably unified (and then it sometimes takes quite some time to mobilise everyone) is when faced by a serious external threat (like the Storm of Chaos etc). Marienburg isn't that. It is a city state which got its freedom through political and financial power. Getting the resources to "re-take" something that most Elector Counts (let alone more junior members of the nobility) have little to no stake in, doesn't represent an external threat, got its independence "legally", and some might even like having as independent for various reasons (maybe they feel that they can use its independence for their own ends), would be hard.

Probably you could just about get forces equivalent to 1 or maybe 2 states together for a war, and then that would leave any advantage in numbers much more muted, and the wealthy Marienburghers could hire mercenaries from all over the Old World and probably expect help from external forces what wouldn't want Marienburg reabsorbed into the Empire (maybe even covert support from some of the other Elector Counts).

Maybe it all comes to this: it's too costly to try and conquer any of those lands. Of course, there is a lot of military-minded nobles who would be eager to try it, and would call the mindset that says that when you gain such territories you gain the riches that they have. Even if we compare to our world, Warhammer is placed in a "time" where a lot of paradigms were happening simultaniously. In Warhammer, that's even more so. So for one side you have those who would like nothing better than to go to war and conquest, and you also have those who are more and more controlling money everywhere, the merchants. For them, the independency of Marienburg is actually something quite possible to capitalize, as Bretonnia being a different realm. The greatest merchants of the Empire have too good contracts with those places to be against any war with them.

Also, even if it would be more or less easy for the Empire to conquer Marienburg by force, it would still cost a lot of people, money, resources, for the reasons already written here. In case of Bretonnia that's even more so. The Empire could win ultimately, but it wouldn't be an easy victory. Bretonnia has a lot of money, some connection with great magical power (among elves, faeries, priests...), and even if their knights aren't organized in so many orders, they are simply amazing - specially those that have drank from the chalice. Of course, Bretonnia has a lot of poverty also, and their soldiers aren't probably as trained or as organized, but even so they would be one of the greatest threats the Empire could face. And if it was a war to conquer Bretonnia, the land itself would raise to protect it from desecration.

Pedro Lunaris said:

It wouldn't be 'easy' for the Empire to conquer Marienburg by force. Marienburg is possibly the most difficult city in the Old World to attack. The empire tried and failed miserably before (the army arrived at the city walls and promptly surrendered).

They city can't really be taken by siege. Marienburg's fleet is extremely powerful (much more so than the Empire's), allowing it to keep supplies and mercenaries coming in to the city. Meanwhile any besieging army has to contend with the swamp that covers all other approaches. This makes logistics extremely difficult. Disease, malnutrition and desertion will chip away the besieging forces rapidly.

A direct assault is pretty suicidal. Even if you manage to breach the city walls you then need to take each island one by one. It's an urban environment that heavily favours the defenders even more than usual. Once you take an island you'll find yourself taking artillery fire from other islands and numerous ships.

In addition to Marienburg's marines and mercenaries the city can also call upon the help of the elves, who have a large enclave in the city and treaties of support. That gives them access to more elite troops and extremely powerful magics.

Taking Marienburg would be an epic undertaking for the Empire - one they would be far from guaranteed to succeed at. It's just not worth the effort. Instead the Empire hopes to regain the city through less violent methods. Espionage and diplomacy are the tools at their disposal. So far they have had absolutely no luck (the burghers value their independence highly), but things can change...