Stuff I'd like to see:

d% rolls as the only resolution mechanic.

Better, clearer and more precise rules for degrees of failure and success.

A bit of skill consolidation. Particularly for stuff like sneak, conceal, shadowing, and for the various advanced group skills. Do we really need separate occult, warp, and daemonology skills?

Talents build around the concept of increasing chance of success, rather than adding new abilities and myriad forms of rules exceptions.

Fixed (non-random), location-specific damage causing cumulative penalties and armour degradation.

An end to class, toughness, armour, damage, psy and cyber power creep.

More levels of less restrictive, lower-powered jobs with fewer requisites and fewer types of requisites.

Some kind of limitation on the amount of times characters can use "powers", and a single mechanic for doing so.

Mass combat rules.

Vehicle combat rules.

Space combat rules.

Atmospheric flight combat rules.

Rules for designing all manner and sizes of units and vehicles.

Squats, Ogryns and Ratlings as playable races.

Economy based on rank, renown and contacts, rather than money.

An initial power level of 2-3 hits and you're down, but not dead, and a power curve that doesn't rise much beyond that, ever.

An end to wonky math. Pretty much nothing and no-one should ever hit more than 70 in a characteristic, and 95% in a skill check.

Starting characteristics ranging from 30-50, rather than 20-40, and characteristics should either be point buy or picked from fixed distributions. Rolling dice for this is silly.

Squad-based event resolution. Squad combat rules, and rules for problem solving as a unit.

… And piles more stuff. But I'm increasingly dissatisfied with the system, my group has already done much work on all of the above and much more, Zweihänder promises to do a lot of the above, and if all else fails we do have a back-up system we really love. So… Perhaps the only really relevant thing I have to say, is that I'd like to see is OW returned to being a DH supplement, rather than the 5th republishing of the same 300 pages in a 400 page book. Many spalts = good. More than one core = bad.

Simsum said:

1. As the “only” resolution mechanic? So you mean whenever you roll dice, it’s a % result, be it on a chart, damage for a weapon, how many Insanity/Corruption/Whatever points you gain? No other mechanic whatsoever beyond a d100? I don’t think that’s what you’re saying, but it’s worth clarifying.

2. What’s unclear about the DOS rules from BC? Test success = 1 DOS. 10 above needed requirement = 2 DOS. 20 above needed requirement = 3 DOS. And so on.

3a. BC already has a lot of skill consolidation. Things like Shadowing and Wrangle have been wrapped into other skills, and things like Concealment/Silent Move have been combined into the ‘Stealth’ Skill.
3b. Given that knowledge of the Warp, the occult and daemonology are not the same things, yes, I’d say we do need all three. More Lore skills is a good thing.

4. Why?

5a. The game is about the Imperial Guard, not the Imperial Navy.
5b. The game is about the Imperial Guard, not the Imperial Navy.

6. Squats? Really?

7. Why? And why is the math ‘wonky’?

8. How is rolling dice silly? And all the games allows for rolling and point-buy. Why should one method be dictated over any other?

9. If you think that each core is just 3/4ths reprint of DH then you are very much mistaken.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

This forum software is just ridiculously user-hostile… But to the point. Or points, as it is.

1. That is what I'm saying, actually. But I guess I should have been more explicit about my desire to eliminate a lot of the dice rolling. I'm not suggesting you should score d% Insanity Points whenever you gain Insanity Points, but rather that I see no reason to involve dice in determining the amount of Insanity Points you gain.

2. What's unclear is on the GM side. My approach to GM-determined modifiers, is to assume the default chance of success is 100% before GM-determined modifiers. And my players understand modifier hunting is a virtue. So for us, the Whiff Factor the system is infamous for is a non-issue. But I've been using the system on and off since its WFRP1e incarnation, and was playing RPGs years before that. Others, as you might have noticed, come to the 40K lines slightly less prepared and have a great deal of problems with this. So it should be addressed. Arguably it's the one thing that most needs addressing, at least based on what people say online about their experiences with the system.

More than that, though, I'd like to see DoS/F expanded into something more. Create a solid framework for the kinds of things that go right/wrong on DoS/F's. Typical advantages and complications. That sort of thing. Because as is, the rules offer basically nothing to encourage GMs to let the mechanic shine. The best descriptions of how to use it outside combat, are examples in the modules and a couple of random spalts. And those aren't even good examples, they're bare-bones. And of course, they offer nothing in the way of a framework a GM can use to handle DoS/F's in a consistent and interesting manner.

3a. True. But I'd still prefer something along the lines of 10 Basic Skills and 10 Advanced Skills. Speaking of which, assuming the Characteristics baseline gets upped by 10 points, I'd like to see Untrained Skill Use become "-20% on the roll" instead of "Target Score before modifiers is Characteristics/2 rounded up". The alternative method is a single modifier with no dependencies. The RAW method is a different value for every Characteristic, derived from whatever the Characteristic's value happens to be at the time. In other words, using the alternative you need to remember one value. Using the RAW method you need to remember one rule and determine the actual value every time you use it.

3b. For us it's not a great big deal. I'm a pretty restrictive GM. In the games I run character advancement depends on in-game opportunities and have in-game restrictions. And just as importantly, we're a fairly large group. The PCs can cover a lot of areas of expertise.

Even so, 50 different shades of almost-but-not-quite the same thing is very little flavour for a lot of GM complication. Everything every player invests in should pay off, so everything PCs can do needs to come up from time to time during play. The Skill Groups create a fantastic mess of stuff to keep track of, devise interesting challenges to, and avoid challenging if the players happen to lack the right slight variant on stuff they can do. If there were less of them, or they at least were a fair bit less similar, this would be a good thing. But as it is it's too much of a good thing.

4. Because I forgot to mention I'd like to see the "new, not improved" abilities be separated out of the Talent category. Create a new category for those things. You could, for example, call them Abilities. This is really just about consistency, transparency and trying to make the system itself more intuitive/less confusing.

5a. The system needs a core rulebook.

5b. The system needs a core rulebook.

6. This weekend we're starting a new campaign, set in the RT era and based on the RT-era fluff. Squats will be a prominent feature of the campaign. Also, I have a seriously underused Squat warband. And overweight, cigar-smoking drawf bikers from Hell are just insanely cool.

Besides, if other 40K fans can ask for silly space elves, why can't I ask for silly space dwarves? At least silly space dwarves aren't boring.

7. Because it works better with the DoS/F mechanic. As for why the math is wonky, I can only speculate that the system in all its various iterations didn't go through a lot of clean-up, and the various groups of people developing and play testing it over the years never really questioned whether they were using the material as is, or running it on top of piles and piles of assumptions and unstated house rules they - quite naturally - developed alongside the game.

I assume you meant to ask how the math is wonky, though. The answer is that the power curve is extremely fragile. Stuff doesn't scale up well, or consistently within the boundaries of the system. Characteristics start too low and end up too high. Skills far more so. Wounds too. Characteristic bonuses likewise. And the further you move along the power curve, the greater the difference between those numbers almost always end up being around the table, which further complicates play/makes the game more fragile.

8. Because the dice gods are fickle, and this system isn't geared towards short lived PCs. Random Characteristics work great for 5-min PC generation dungeon crawler type systems. This isn't such a system. And not having random generation be the default doesn't mean you can't do it anyway.

9. I exaggerated for effect, but it's less of an exaggeration that I wish it was. Numbers-wise, how many of the people who buy one so-called core book in the line do you think buys just one? It's just a guess, but I'd be very surprised if it was more than 1 in 10. And assuming I'm even in the very distant neighbourhood of the right number, that makes the apparently endless stream of "cores" kind of a sh*tty thing to do to us customers.

I'm pretty sure I really want about half of OW. And equally sure I already have 3 more copies than I want of the other half of it. And I really, really doubt the majority of customers don't feel the same way.

Without full disclosure on all relevant data - much of which no doubt doesn't exist, and the rest of which are confidential if FFG has any sense at all - we can't demonstrate how right or wrong either of us are. So we can argue a lot about this, but it seems extremely unlikely anything useful would come of it.

My only wish is that things won't be so hamfistedly rigid as in Dark Heresy. I hope Specialties are just the starting points. I know others try to claim that's not how the military and IG work. But that's patently not true. There is plenty of room for moving around. In both real world militaries and the IG books, people DO move from specialty to other things. Whether a Heavy Weapons trooper becoming a Sergeant or a Sniper getting promoted to officer (I'm pretty sure both of those happened in the Ghost novels alone).

Yes, you get assigned a role, but you're not stuck there forever. Possibly for life (Given the short life of most Guardsmen ) - but not forever! And some malleability and such makes for a much more interesting game with much more interesting characters than boring, rigid trees.

And as always, I argue Elite Advances are NOT the answer, they are a bandage over a gaping wound, not a solution. For one, even in the rules they require GM approval, so an otherwise great GM who is By the Book may not allow them. that doesn't make them bad. So much better to have things reasonably freeform from the get go. Starting Specialties, not permanent role (Though some probably more permanent than others, Psykers, Tech Priests, and Commisars - but even those should be able to go through very different routes. A more Melee OR Shooty commisar who is either a good leader OR intimidating. etc.)

Forget the Baneblade; it's a wuss. Give me a Stormhammer, and a fair sea to sail her by (what? She's already got half the gun turrets of a full-blown destroyer. Why not the seafaring analogy?).

If I could have one wish for only war… its that the players get a squad character sheet, much like all the players work together to make there ship in rouge trader and the all share it. Less focus on the individual players and more on the squad.

Simsum said:

No, it doesn't. A core rulebook would severly restrict the evolvement of the line. That approach nearly destroyed Hero Systems and pretty much destroyed the World of Darkness. For good reason.

Dok Martin said:

Indeed it worked so well for WW they're now releasing new editions of the Old World of Darkness lines…

Seriously, imagine what would have happened if FFG had chosen this path. We would have a single set of rules : DH's, set in stone. That would make for a pretty arid book and people would still be complaining they have to purchase at least two books to have a complete game.

My wish for OW? I wish for a setting that does justice to the awesomeness that is the IG. I want grim epic, heroism and betrayal and tragedy. And tanks.

Dulahan said:

The problem is not with the Careers or Specialty system, but the attempt to get more variety than there should be. The truth is that there shouldn't be a "heavy weapons" specialty, or a "sergeant" specialty or a "trooper" specialty (or whatever). In the Imperial Guard there should be 1 career: Imperial Guardsman. The Heavy Weapons trooper just happens to be the Imperial Guardsman with a bigger gun. Often specialist weapons would be given to better shots and the like, but that is more a factor of experience (some xp spent on improving BS) or natural talent (rolled above average on starting BS) than "super special awesome heavy weapon trooper abilities!" The sergeant is just a particularly experienced Imperial Guardsman (built with a larger amount of XP), with some leadership skills either gained from training, force of personality or built up from experience. The same applies to Space Marines, where an assault marine is not a marine with uber assault abilities, he is just a Marine with a bolt pistol, chainsword and jump pack.

"Realistically" there should be a general Imperial Guard advance table that almost all characters choose from. There should be some way to isolate regimental differences, but other than that most characters "roles" should be determined purely by what they happen to be equipped with and what they spend their experience on. There should be some advanced specialties, for the true specalists, like medics, specialist snipers and the like (possibly officers as well), Only truely different units should deviate from this, such as the Stormtroopers and Roughriders, who should have completely separate advance schemes from everyone else. Also, these different units shouldn't be mixed in a PC party. You don't have a random stormtrooper in a squad of Cadians (or visa versa). Players should all be Cadians, or all be Stormtroopers, or all be Rough Riders etc.

But then I am not terribly convinced this is a terribly great idea for a game anyway. Military roleplaying games tend to be much more limiting in their subject matter, and most of a war film's drama comes not so much from the events, but from character moments which means unless you go real hard core for the roleplay element (rather than the investigate, intrigue and hitting things present in most games) I just feel like Only War is going to get very stale quite quickly (Only Combat All the Time!) or very cliched. It was much more justifiable to have a variety of activities for the players to do in the other lines. Even Space Marines (particularly in the much looser Deathwatch) can do a form of investigation, diplomacy and intrigue. All these things are well above the pay grade of an Imperial Guardsman. His fun fun duties are: When there is an enemy around, shoot them. In the long periods when there isn't, you are either looking for the enemy (sentry duty), digging (trenches), or moving **** about. Occasionally you will get free time. During that time you will probably get sozzled, or spend your timne catching up on sleep. Maybe you get more extended leave and you get to do a bit more, but that isn't exactly thrilling in a game.

I don't entirely agree with the 'nothing to do' and 'can't do investigation' and stuff…/

Look at the Gaunt's Ghost novels. There are a few where more independent things gets assigned. Like investigating the messed up manor in the one. Or the ones set in a Hive City under siege. Or the behind the lines resistance stuff.

Or the Cain novels, sure Cain does a lot of the stuff, but some soldiers inevitably get drug along and play a valuable role. What's this about some strange happenings? Hmm, maybe we should check it out…

There's certainly ways, take a bit of creativity from the GM, but even in the IG units get shuffled to garrison duty or some rec time behind the lines where weird stuff can happen.

Well, personally I would argue that Gaunt's Ghosts isn't really 40k. It is standard military sci-fi and/or Sharpe with a 40k sheen. While the broad brush things are pretty 40k, many, if not most, of the details are wrong. Doesn't stop them being enjoyable books.

Cain: He is a commissar, and the focus of the books. The Imperial Guardsmen with him often end up dead at the end. They are not good role models for a player character group.

The problem with mysteries while on leave is that if it is anything remotely hinky (ie warp/xenos related) the Imperial Guard will have no idea what they are dealing with. If they are lucky their lack of knowledge means they reach a dead end and achieve exactly diddly squat. If they are unlucky they find something and end up dead or a brood brother of a Genestealer cult. If they somehow end up surviving they then face either "Ok, well bugger off, this is our job. Don't ask anymore questions" or "Please schedule an appointment with your local Commissar for the relocation of the contents of your skull." This kind of stuff is totally above a Guardsman's pay grade. Heck, its above his regimental commander's pay grade.

If it is an utterly mundane mystery (eg Guardsman stabbed in an alley during a brawl, or just to nick his stuff) then ok, maybe, but even then that really falls under "That's a job for somebody else." Not the kind of thing that is going to stop a player character group, but still not really the life of an Imperial Guardsman.

Lightbringer said:

within the cannon you do have trucks and the like, they are just (typically) kept from the frontline and relegated to the logistical areas of the front. In Gaunt's Ghosts book 5 or 6 on the shrine world Heridor[sp] the ghosts and others are moved up a road from the city to the shrine in some… 6 wheeled i think… open topped trucks when danger arises suddenly.

also, in book two the ghosts (some riding as motorcycle outriders) are on super hauler trucks as they hold off a suspected ambush on their supply lines.

Also, Commisariat sedans throughout. Not many other IG books ever focus on anything that isn't an assault in a crusade frontline or a defence of some badass fortress or line in the sand.

With all due respect, boring and lame as most guard deployments are, I believe that we are getting to play the interesting guardsman.

We get to be the IG that recieve the unwelcome 'reward' for being good at their jobs and eventually get to know things, ala veterans or elites in the TT.

We get to be the infiltraitors, the diplomatic detail, the prisoner escort, the advance recon, the guys who set up an ambush for that other regiment that friendly fired us (commisar be dammed).

There are uncounted trillions of unwashed guardsman, and it is hardly unreasonable to assume that we might get the chance to be the .0001% that get 'lucky' (aka fate points)

"All right, sweethearts, what are you waiting for? Breakfast in bed? Another glorious day in the Guard! A day in the Imperial Guard is like a day on the farm. Every meal's a banquet! Every paycheck a fortune! Every formation a parade! I LOVE the Guard! "

Simsum said:

You're pulling my tags, Squats? Really?

Squats where the goofiest mess to come out of early 40k and we'll never see them in the cannon again, the GW powers that be refuse to talk about them anymore. The only thing they've said about them since the cancelled them like the youngest daughter on "Family Matters" is that they where eaten by a hive fleet… all of them.

The only BL novel that mentions them is listed as Apocrypha on their site and the novel it self (the Inquisition War trilogy) opens with a disclaimer from the Inquisition itself on the account being suspect.

We're more likely to see Space Marines with shuriken catapults again before we see squats sanctioned by GW.

Regarding Squats…

Um… there's hints they're coming back. They're called the Demiurg. and they're showing up in a lot of the more recent stories. Notably "Purging of Kadillus" had a scene of Orks fighting some at the beginning. So be afraid, be very afraid. It's seeming likely they figured out the less silly way to have them.

EDIT: and regarding Gaunts Ghosts…

Um… (yes, again!). They're more 40k now than almost anything else. They're the BIG thing aside Space Marines. Abnett's version of the Universe has helped flesh it out and make it a lot more popular, and make a lot more sense. To say it isn't really 40k is like saying Space Marines aren't. Especially on a board devoted to 40k RPGs that draw a lot from them. I'd wager that even in the very likely event the Tanith First and Only don't show up in the game, elements of the Ghosts books will be drawn on HEAVILY for the way the Guard is portrayed. Just as Eisenhorn and Ravenor were for Dark Heresy.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing is MORE 40k than the Abnettverse, and GW obviously agrees since things are changed toward those things.

I would like to see:

1. Rules for making your own Regiments

2. Vehicle rules and stats for the most basic IG vehicles at the very least, I've had to stat Chimaeras and Valkyries myself in the past ,based off other existing vehicles (Rhino and Valkyrie Sky-talon respectively), and not sure if I did them any justice

3. Siege of Vraks / Eye of Terror's Lost and the Damned-styled Renegade/Traitor Guard regiments as one of the 3 main enemies of the line, allowing some awesome trench, tank and city-fight warfare missions. Thinking Plague Ogryns and Zombies, Chaos Space Marines commanding the forces, Chaos hounds or Flesh Hounds being herded at the Loyalist lines etc.

4. A proper Ork Waaagh! as the main or secondary enemy. Rogue Trader has a fair amount of Orks in it, but this is mostly Freebooters / Pirates. From memory, the Orks are a minor inclusion in the Core Book, included a bit more in Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss and Battlefleet Koronus (although no more than anyone else in the latter 2), and are the focus of 1 adventure book, but by comparison I can only think of 1 Rogue Trader book that doesn't have a considerable amount of Eldar (Into the Storm). Only War would be a great place to put more focus on the Orks, including stats for most Ork units, vehicles and aircraft.

5. As others have said numerous times, Squad abilities, tailored more to making the players seem more like an actual squad working together, instead of the Deathwatch-styled abilties which were mostly "I spend Cohesion, everyone does something awesome this round". More ongoing abilities like perhaps resistance to Fear or Pinning if the players are at a designated point that the squad's leader chose to make their stand, or benefits to Suppression Fire while a team-mate is advancing (ie. Cover Fire).

6. A good, solid system for Mass Combat other than cinematic-styled. What I mean is something similar to what was included in Battlefleet Koronus, but perhaps with a greater difference between rules for Infantry, Armoured, Artillery and Air groups.

7. Also, combat rules for fighting Hordes or enemy Squads that aren't as deadly as the Deathwatch and Black Crusade ones. If enemy Squads are used, perhaps they could also have limited access to Squad abilities (I am planning on having my Deathwatch players fight a Chaos Space Marine squad with Cohesion Points and Squad Modes of their own, and if I run my planned all-Ork RT game I was going to have the final adventure against a Deathwatch Kill-team, so something like this would be awesome for Only War)

Kerrahn, you are my Battle Brother in wishes for Only War. Everything you said I wholeheartedly agree with.

Especially Renegade Humans and Orks for the main enemies. Probably Nids as the third and we've covered all three things a Guardsman is most likely to fight.

Dulahan said:

I personally disagree. Ok, GW certainly fully supports the books and their presence in the setting, but they just don't do the details quite right (I tend to find that Dan Abnett's non-military stuff fits better). Yes, many of the extremes of 40k are overblown, and many things should be taken to be extremes, or just stylistic representations of what the things should "realistically" be like. However, Abnett goes to far the other way with Gaunt's Ghosts. Things are too "normal". Guardsmen are too independent minded, too technically minded, too… modern. Yes, there is variation in the Guard, but there are certain things that should remain fairly universal. Technology is a mystery to most citizens of the Imperium. Not so Abnett's guardsmen. They are far too aware of Chaos (yes, Guardsmen fight Chaos heretics… but they know of them as being Heretics, or rebels, or something. They don't usually know that they are worshippers of Chaos).

Commissars (most specifically Gaunt himself) are not done correctly. Yes, the image of the Commissar who shoots his men left right and centre is a bit overblown, but Gaunt is far too reasonable. The only time he ever behaves like a proper commissar is when he shoots the officer for "wasting Imperial resources" when he shells Gaunt's own men. Yes, a Commissar shouldn't "realistically" shoot everyone for every minor infraction, and he is concerned for the men's morale, but that is because it impacts their ability to fight for their Emperor. Commissars should be fanatics. Not slavering mad men, but usually quite vocal about Duty to the Emperor (Commissars are meant to oversee their charges' spiritual health), and even the "quiet" ones are "quietly" fanatical.

Gaunt also doesn't act like a Regimental Commander. He is far too hands on. Partly that comes from 1) the clash between his role as a Commissar and a Senior Officer and 2) the complete and utter nonsense the books make of any proper military structure (but then that isn't really a problem with his portrayal of 40k). Abnett clearly wanted to write the more intimate stories kind of "company level" stories (similar to most of the Sharpe series) provide, following specific characters in detail, but didn't want to deal with the fact that in 40k a company commander has next to no freedom of action. So he makes the main character a regimental commander… but then continues to write "company level" fiction. The way that Gaunt commands that regiment should just lead to disaster (basically having platoons running around on their own volition, without any central direction, with the senior officer being hard, if not impossible to find and contact). Ok, sometimes it is better than that in some books, but the fact it seems to work every time is a bit irritating to me.

Catachans, Sentinels and Super Heavy Vehicle rules

Hoping for quite a few things.

Custom regiment generator/rules, like in Rites of Battle.

Psyker rules that I feel arsed to read (I blame myself for this, but I never allow psykers in my groups because the rules are too complex for me.)

Lots of fun stuff for the Enginseer.

Good vehicle rules.

New vehicles (please, give us an APC that isn't the Chimera.)

Interesting enemies (the guard fight traitors, Orks, Tyranids, and Tau; wha are we seeing that's new?)

An interesting sector.

More Specialties down the line.

More human diversity.

No, I don't mean Not-Fantasy or contemporary ethnicity/race proxies.

I want to see more Abhumans and Mutants. More minor, abeit unique variations that prop up from the huge genetic diversity and evolution of the species.

New vehicles. I really want to see cars, trucks and new Leman Russ variants. Ones that are closer to a steampunk or WWI level, others closer to a late 20th century design (which, on tabletop isn't hard to do for conversions).

Generally, I just want more diversity.

I hestitate to use Dan Abnett's fluff for anything, even pillow stuffing. The man writes novels that wouldn't even be able to fly in the old Mack Bolan series. He's ignorant, a bad writer, and I hesitate to even call him a hack, although the field is so lowered nowadays that I suppose that label fits…

Warboss Krag said:

Thats a bit harsh but true, none of the black library staff are Neil Gaiman so what can you expect. However his work has been seminal in the 40K universe. Ghosts and Eisenhorn being the best known and the influence of these books changed the way the world is presented, before those books all we knew was that there was space marines.

I am however interested in why you think he's worse than the others, is it just that his style doesn't fit you personally or is there some kind of insight?