Hello All

So, am I the only one who saw the Icon on the page and Rejoined until I clicked on it and saw it was a separate line?

I had pre-ordered this book for my Dark Heresy players- but now, I don't think I will anymore.

Do we really need MORE separate Stats for Xenos (Tyranids, Orcs and Others- I already have two/three sets of them from both fan-man supplements and official lines)? More Separate Stats for the Same Daemons and Heretics?

And they say its compatible- but the DH Psyker system isn't compatible with any of the other lines. How will "Only War" fit in with everything?

This kinda sucks. A Lot.

Especially since Guardsman is a Career in DH.

How is this new book going to be any different then a Toned down Death Watch? Yet another book full of the same talents but with a different XP cost attached to them.

Instead of improving the Core line, Dark Heresy, instead another new line to pad is added.

I am headed off home for now, I am likely to post something else when I get back there- I just had to get my opinion out there as soon as I saw the announcement.

Am I alone in this, going crazy perhaps? Gained too many insanity points?

1. I don't view this as putting Dark Heresy on the "back burner." I think it is legitimate to look at the topic of war in the Imperium and realize that as far as RPG settings go, it could very well become its own setting. It very much separates from an inquisitorial investigation. I think it would be a disservice to the topic if it was only treated in terms of how it can be handled as an aspect of an inquisitorial investigation. As it is, we have limited material on the waging of a long term ground war. Deathwatch is too surgical, too pinpoint to really cover this topic. Dark Heresy is more for within the borders of the imperium, dealing with intrigue. Rogue Trader and Black Crusade are suitably different.

2. Some of us actually want a low powered Deathwatch. Space marines are nice and all, but its hard to feel heroic when you have ubermensch mode dialed up to 11.

3. The guardsman career lacks the resolution in a war themed DH campaign. If everyone is a guardsman, you just lose something. Sure, you can just say that thats the depressing life of being one of untold millions in the IG, but it still makes for a boring RPG campaign.

4. Seeing a BC rules updated version in a pro-imperial light might be interesting.

5. You might want to do a double take on exactly how much overlap you have among all the systems foe wise, you might be surprised. Also, I would say its hardly fair to include fan written material in that calculation, and you should know better than that. Also, not all of 40k has to be against the same races ('nids, Orks, Tau, Chaos, etc.), there are plenty of other things out there to fight. Just because its not in tabletop doesn't mean its not in the lore. Enslavers anyone?

I don't want to sound too insulting with this, but its very much sad to see chatter like this; the anger dripping here. I would almost dare use the E word, but that's turning into a sort of Godwin's law these days. If you don't want it, don't buy it. But there is no need to berate those making something you don't want, nor those who want it. Yes, you could kindly ask that they refocus their efforts, but there comes a point where you must realize, we're talking about games here.

The decision makes sense from a business point of view: Imperial Guards are very much loved by most W40k fans and it would have been hard to cover them in a 144 (or even in a 256) page supplement. Also, core rulebook sales are the highest in any RPG line (or so I was told) and an IG supplement for Dark Heresy would probably not have generated as high sales as a standalone core rulebook.

The only thing that concerns me a bit is that FFG guys might be stretching themselves a bit, with five separate W40k RPGs under their wings now. Producing high-quality supplements for all five lines will definitely be a challenge. Still, I hope that they'll be able to pull it off.

Back home!

@ KommissarK

Your right- I got a bit carried away: Its not real outrage, seeing as its only a game. Its more Disappointment, seeing as I payed for the game and I was hoping to get material for the game and support for it. Instead, we haven't even seen an Errata for even the most basic things (shield robes @ 5k Thrones anyone?). Now, this isn't about needing a document to help me fix obvious mistakes like that, but more so about taking the time to back-up the products.

Your also right about not wanting it, not buying it: as a separate line, the product caters to a different clientele. Which is a shame, because as I said, I'd already pre-ordered it and I am very likely to cancel my order because this isn't the product that was promised to me (and likely not at the price that was promised either.)

1- DH is vast enough as to allow for several types of games, not necessarily limited to Inquisitorial Investigation. Agreed, there's limited material on waging war of a long term in the current books (In the Inquisitor's handbook is about the biggest set of information that.) However, Only War could easily have done for the Guard what Book of Judgement (A very good book in my opinion) did to the Adeptus Arbites (Given them a life of their own, outside of the Inquisition). The mechanics are all already there in DH, from cell directives to, as I said, the same likely talents and skills that we've seen across four other lines. Hardly anything that requires its own book.

2- You can already find your low-powered Death-watch in Dark Heresy. Virtually the only thing that's NOT there is the Cohesion mechanic. Again, is that something that will sustain and make viable an entire book?

3- I don't agree: and either way, the Imperial Guard isn't limited to Guardsmen. You can have Sanctioned Psykers [DH], Priests [DH], Medics [Adepts?], Mechanicus troops [Tech-priests, Secutors?]. All those have a place both in lore and in practice in an Imperial Guard themed campaign that wouldn't require a line of its own.

Some alternate ranks would have easily covered the missing points and allowed for more specialization. Not to mention, would have made the games truly compatible.

4- A BC rules updated version in a Pro-imperial light MIGHT be interesting, your quite right- but that doesn't make it compatible. It makes it into a rehash. A double Rehash, actually- a sorta protofusion of Death Watch and Dark Heresy glued together with Black Crusade that updated mechanics but doesn't help those of us who still feel the original line still has a lot to give, and a lot of material to work with (the Calaxis sector is a big place and some official material on it would leave me, the GM, more time to work on the investigation, the story, the campaign- rather then having to build the world from scratch only to find out later that the sector really isn't the way I pictured it and thus crash with established lore.)

5- Your right- that was harsh, I shouldn't have included fan-made stuff into the equation and, while were at it, lets ignore the monsters as well [Even though DH, Death Watch AND rogue trader all have different Orcs and are all officials]. However, you can't deny that a) Talents b) Skills c) Pages worth of the combat system and critical tables, mutations, shock and trauma- are all exactly the same, if only slightly different. Huge amounts of pages devoted to the same "ideas", different enough to prevent the games from being truly compatible- but still using the exact same core mechanic. [ultimate Irony: Enslavers are in DH's Creature's Anathema. So if we find new stats for them in the new book....]

I am looking forward to seeing the content in the book- how much material is truly different that they decided that they couldn't put it in an addition book that would actually enhance another one of the lines that needs a bit of love instead of having rehashed rules that we've seen before but don't really help fix the core problem.

Now, granted- its a two way street: you can say, use the Only War book to retroactively fix Dark Heresy by applying the rules there. Sure, that might work- but will my player, who has been looking forward to playing a Commissar for months now, get a chance to do that with this book- or are they as compatible as the other lines have been so far? (Which is, in my honest opinion, not a lot.)

Keeping also in mind that not everyone bought every single book of the 4 games; some only bought a single core book and work with the supplement of a single line; so yeah it might be repetitive for us, but from a business point of view, you are releasing a core book which will attract not only your current base of players, but also new blood that have no idea on how the system works or what skills/talent/whatever works.

They're not making books for you, they're doing it for everyone .

That's true! But not very valid, I think- for one reason: like I've previously stated, I think the DH book already has the tools necessary to attract the interest of anyone who's already in love with the Imperial Guard. All that it would require would be some advertisement that would highlight those points.

[Edit]- "In control of this martial alter ego, players go forth at the behest of their officers to fight the eternal and implacable foes of the Imperium – the foul xenos, the mutant, the heretic, and the dark forces of the Ruinous Powers."

For all intents and purposes, how in the WORLD is that different from what DH has to Offer? Heck, check out DH's little thing at the back of the book.

"You are an Acolyte in the service of the Emperor’s Inquisition. You stand in the front line of a great and secret war where your duty is to hunt out the foul stench of heresy, the vile alien, and the twisted influence of Chaos."

Can you spot the differences? [/edit]

Isn't that how dungeons and dragons works/ed (I wonder if its taboo to mention them...). One core edition- then hundreds of books that enhance it and give it the flavor that caters to every type of player.

On an unrelated note- the BC changes to the system [barring Psykers] are superficial at best and could be added as an Errata (+10 to your standard attack instead of 0, +30 to All out attack, etc etc) and some of them (skill fusions) can be considered as optional at best because some players like it one way others another way,nothing that can't be house ruled. The new Psy-system can be introduced trough a book of its own (Polypsykana Book anyone?) The same way Blood of Martyrs brought in new rules for Faith Talent and abilities [bought that book anyways, didn't hear me complaining then.]

Granted, I know that's not going to happen. Its just that, there's a limit to these things- and this, in my opinion, is... well, its pretty bad.

IF BC is really better- then a new Edition of DH would have been a lot more appropriate then another Core Book that doesn't fix anything but only adds problems onto the pile with another line to balance.

The difference? In DH you're fighting them wihtin citites, pacified planets and the like; in OW, it'll be on some far flung forgotten war torn world you're not from and will surely never leave

@Saldre

On an unrelated note- the BC changes to the system [barring Psykers] are superficial at best and could be added as an Errata (+10 to your standard attack instead of 0, +30 to All out attack, etc etc) and some of them (skill fusions) can be considered as optional at best because some players like it one way others another way,nothing that can't be house ruled.

Considering that the skill fusions alone would necessitate redoing the entire career system, I strongly disagree. BC's changes are more in line with what other games sell as separate editions.

And as an upgrade of DH to BC standards (or even beyond) I can accept OW. DH was the first 40k game and it really shows.

To be honest, I wasn't even thinking on buying Only War up until this morning when I saw it was going to be an independent line. Now I'm intregued about the book.

I don't usually buy supplements (save fo very useful ones like Into the Storm), only the Core book, since it's easier for me to just carry a single book from place to place and have everything I nned to play and storytell the game on it.

I think Only War is also a good opportunity to introduce new people to the Warhammer 40k gameline who wasn't interested in the other games.

The only problem I have with the book (and probably the main reason I wouldn't buy it) is that I don't like the Black Crusade modification to the rules. On the other hand, what I want most is a new set of Mass Combat rules I can use for my Rogue Trader games (I don't like any of the alternatives the line has so far).

I think we have to wait and hope for the best.

When I found out Only War was to be its own game I was more than a little surprised. When Knowledge is Power was first released Only War was the book I wanted the most. A book about Guard – one of the things I love the most in 40K – how could this not be good? That I’d actually end up being one of the people writing the book never even entered my mind (I wasn’t even a play-tester at that stage), but that’s neither here nor there.

Truth is I think it’s better to put it aside as its own core book. I’ve seen enough people say “Guard don’t belong in Dark Heresy! Dark Heresy is an investigation game” to know that there are just as many who want OW as part of DH as there are that don’t. And I’ve seen people here say that tanks have no role in Dark Heresy, and I’m sure if OW was still a DH expansion that there’d be people complaining that the scope of the game wasn’t ‘right’ for Dark Heresy and how Dark Heresy is about the Inquisition and how Baneblades *** don’t fit in an RPG.

How OW all comes together as a game I’m not sure yet – I’m not part of the testing so I haven’t played it yet. I was initially very resistant to the changes made in the Black Crusade combat rules, but as we tested them I slowly changed my mind (the rest of my group was on board from the word go – I was the hold out!). So I’m actually glad that we’re getting a game based upon the ‘new’ standard for the 40K RPGs, that being Black Crusade, and I suspect that like RT was to DH and DW was to RT, the OW rules will be a logical progression or evolution of the BC rules.

BYE

*** Someone actually did say that to me in another OW thread a few months back, so I’m not making that example up.

It seems that so far, I am alone in my opinion- but I will concede some points: I am not a psyker, and have not peered into the future to see the contents of the books.

Perhaps the book will follow trough and be completely compatible with Dark Heresy- I guess what I am worried about is the Price Vs New material and usefulness. Selling old items under the excuse that its a new line, so you don`t need to buy it if you don`t want too- but if you DO buy it you end up getting half the book`s worth.

Ministrotum Cleric, Storm-trooper, Engiseer- three classes proposed that already exist in Dark Heresy. You`ll have to excuse me if I am skeptical about compatibility when already the only difference between the two lines- as pointed out by Braddoc, is the setting. A core rule book doesn`t sell a setting, it sells mechanics. A supplement books sells a setting. That`s how the system work. [Like I said, Options are presented in DH to run an Imperial Guard game- including War worlds and gear. Not as extensively as a Ecclesiarchy Campaign, a Radical Campaign, an Adeptus Arbites Campaign- but thats only natural: Only war was supposed to be that book.}

Skill fusion, like I said, is... wonky... IF it becomes an issue to that extent, ascenscion presents its own take on Skill fusions. And its not very hard to work around that: the skill fusion isn`t whats going to break or not the DH book. They can easily be ignored without affecting the core product.

BUT! Your right- all together, the changes represent a new edition- a new edition that`s been sidelined in favor of another book which will further separate DH from the group [because it is outdated] rather then bring it the reinforcement that Only War could bring

I bought all of the DH supplements, and even some Rogue Traders & Death Watch supplements because the fluff in there was nice and the repetitions minimal. I did not buy the core books, because I did not need another set of the same talents, skills and slightly refluffed mechanical combat, investigative and such rules.

I do agree that I am judging it too fast. I am just worried that were going to get a 400 page book that`s only going to be partially useful for those of us who have remained loyal to the line.

What I am worried about is... Chapter 2, Career Paths [48 pages], Chapters 3 and 4 Skills and talents [24 pages], Chapter 6 [Psychic powers 20 pages] Chapter 7, playing the game [66 pages] Of which there is a paragraph called there is only war by the way, read that paragraph for the theme explored in Dark Heresy as an actual option of play. And then the Aliens, Heretics and Antagonist chapter [Which is usually my favorite in all of the books and the first thing I check out- but this time, I suspect it will be the same things we`ve seen before. Your right in that there more monsters to fight out there then the regular Xenos, but as a core book, people who buy it EXPECT to fight Orcs, Tyranids and the Like- 25 pages.]

That`s [ give or take a couple of pages from the other stuff in the book that`s relatively not important ]183 pages of things that this book... is going to be repeating... again... Off a 400 page corebook. COuld have gotten a good, solid supplement with the remaining 200 pages that would have been cheaper and thusly more attractive in a line that hasnt been getting the attention it deserves. When the last errata update dates back to 2009, you know there`s an issue. [Especially when the next rogue trader book thats coming out is presenting the players with options to play Dark Eldar... or something...¸]

But I guess we`ll wait and see what`s in the book- hopefully the stuff I mentioned above won`t be as clear cut as I think it will be. I worry about the Psychic powers and compatibility- I worry about 13 new careers that seem virtually the Same as the DH careers and I worry about a new set of stats for monsters we`ve already seen before while the Lore Sections introduce YET another section of the Sector ³thats only going to be slightly detailed* instead of enhancing and expanding on the Calaxis Sector, which is rife with potential.

Just check the GM forums for the amount of people after Information on Dusk or Malfi, or any number of other planets that get a throwaway line in some book that sets the mood- but leaves us wanting quite more.

I think you’re a little too focused on ‘compatibility’. OW will be compatible with DH in the same way that DW is compatible with DH, or that BC is compatible with RT.

In other words – the core mechanics will be the same, or similar, but the difference will be in the details and line-specific rules (eg. Endeavours aren’t really ‘compatible’ with the other 4 RPG’s as Endeavours are specific to RT). The only thing that I think we can safely say won’t match is the DH psychic system. The DH psychic system was written an age ago by Black Industries, and every product line since then has abandoned that in favour of the one we have in RT/DW/BC/OW. It’s not like they’re making OW like WFRP with its own proprietary dice system or whatever (and thank the Emperor they aren’t doing that!). It’s still a game that sits firmly within the 40K RPG product line, and like every book, is a revision/evolution of what has come before.

Any other differences will come from the logical evolution of rules since the early days of DH, where rules have been refined or revised based upon their use (or misuse). It’s not just a case of taking the Sergeant or the Commissar and using a USB/Plug-and-Play system to make it work in DH or RT. It would require the same conversion that any character moving between games would require. You can’t port a Black Crusade Chosen into RT without changing a few things (how a few Talents/Traits work, and so on). I think it is safe to say that the same will apply here.

I hope that all made sense. :-)

BYE

It made perfect sense, so I hope I don't sound too offensive, or that I am targeting my comments to anyone in particular- because I am not. I am just pointing out a few things that are rather disappointing- What your implying is that the compatibility is virtually... non-existent... In that they both happen in the same world, and follow the same set of "rules"- but all of the values are out of whack.

"Fantasy Flight Games is thrilled to announce the upcoming release of Only War! In this all-new standalone Warhammer 40,000 roleplaying game, players take on the roles of soldiers in the Imperial Guard, the galaxy-spanning armies of the God-Emperor. Fully compatible with FFG’s other Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay titles , this comprehensive game system explores a previously unseen side of life in the Imperium of Man."

What in the WORLD does that mean then? Can my player, who has been dying to play a commissar since the game was announced (a LONG time ago) join a Dark Heresy game without going trough horrendous loops?

The evolution of rules has left us in the dust. Whats different from the Only War guardsmen and the Dark Heresy guardsmen? Its the same guy- heck, if you include backgrounds, some of the Dark Heresy Guardsmen start off as more even more experienced, having already participated in such combats.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to port a Black Crusade Chosen [without some work]- but... porting a guardsman or an enginseer or a cleric... shouldn't involve work...

It just seems to me that half of the Only War book will cover things we already have, and its holding hostage the other half that people who already Own DH would like to own [but will have to pay a bundle to get now.]

the more splat books, the more the risk of breaking the game.

Saldre said:

Erm. Isn't that an overtly bleak way of looking at a new Core Book?

I'm sure the rule system will have evolved. I support this approach. It gives the designers the flexibility to shape the rules according to the requirements of the stories they intend to tell. And they can throw out old garbage without giving it a second thought.

What I'm hoping for is that OW will be a bit more back-to-the-roots theme-wise. Don't get me wrong, RT, DW and BC are great games. But they're also kind of... glossy. I miss the... um, British approach which made Dark Heresy such a nasty, down-n-dirty kinda game. Acolytes are anti heroes: they are thugs, morally ambivalent, ignorant, low powered and hence rather lovable. Which is the reason why I'm so hesitant to use some stuff from the latter supplements, Battle Sisters specifically, in my game.

I must've spent the past 10 minutes trying to find this post. I would have replied earlier, so sorry about that!

Saldre said:

(I'm cutting your post just to make the quote shorter)

All right. Let's all take a breath!

Ok. As I said before, I think we're getting a little hung up on this 'compatibility' issue.

Lemme go over what you’ve said and address it where I can (keep in mind I’m gagged on quite a bit of this book due to NDA’s, so for some things you are just going to have to wait for an answer – that’s the reality of the situation and there’s nothing you nor I can do about it).

Firstly - your "what does that eve mean?" comment. It means what it's always meant. The game has the same base rule set - the way characteristics, Skill Tests, combat, rounds, turns, critical damage, experience, character sheets and so on. They're all the same. Every game has the same base, meaning that they all work with one another. Where they differ is with the details, as some rules have changed over the years (the odd Talent or Trait here and there), some things have been amalgamated to reduce waste or confusion (some Skills have been combined, others dropped) and a few things have undergone revision based upon experience with other games (the combat system is a good example - the basic core behind it is the same, but details and changed like Standard Attacks, how Lightning Attack works, and so on). Some things don't work with one another (the DH psychic system is alien to the other 4 games), and some things are built specifically for that type of game (Squad/Solo Modes in Deathwatch, Corruption/Infamy for Black Crusade, and so on).

But at it's core, even if Unnatural Toughness works slightly differently in one game vs another, the games start at the same base. Do you see what I'm saying?

Can a DH player take a Commissar from Only War. Depends on how much work you think needs to be done. Let's take a more extreme example perhaps.

Can a Space Marine be brought into a Dark Heresy campaign. The answer is yes, mechanically he can. As Deathwatch and Dark Heresy have a common rule base, the two will work with one another. The Squad Mode/Solo Mode mechanics will be absent (although porting them over requires no work because they would only affect the Marine anyway), but you can roll dice with the rest of the Acolytes until the Emperor rises from the Golden Throne. Would you do it though? Probably not, as the Deathwatch Marine will far outclass the Acolytes in every way.

So going back to the Commissar example. He will port across pretty easily - he has a WS, BS, Str, Tgh, Ag, Int, WP, Fel stat like characters in Dark Heresy. He has wounds. He has fate points (I think he has fate points... he should do). He has weapons that roll a 1d10 and add something to damage. He follows the same system. He might have rules quirks that are unique to OW, like the Squad/Solo Modes for Deathwatch characters or Corruption/Infamy for Black Crusade, but at the end of the day he can still join with the Acolytes and have a wonderful time blasting heretics and bringing the power of the Emperor to those that might attempt to tarnish His Light. Details are going to be different - Black Crusade contains a section on the differences between the games, and other than the DH psychic system, they're mostly minor and easy to correct - but the core remains the same.

Can I belabour this point any further?

I don't disagree that the evolution of the rules from DH to RT to DW to BC to OW has left DH in the dust, and I want a 2.0 as much as the next guy (as long as it's a proper 2.0 of the existing game, not a WHFR with fancy special dice and all that nonsense). Will FFG do this? I hope so, and if they do I hope I get to be involved, because I loooooooove tearing rules apart, finding errors and making things work better. But like you I can only speculate and live in hope. Raging against the night won't help us here, so let's not do that.

Will a OW Guardsman be different from a DH Guardsmen? Probably. OW, like every game (except DH), has unique mechanics that set it apart (as I've described several times above). So superficially they might be similar or even the same (I'd have to check the version of the rules I have, but it's not a final version so I can't and won't say for certain), but the details will differ because it is a different game.

RE: Porting over from Black Crusade. I don't think that you shouldn't be able to port from Black Crusade. It certainly requires more work than porting from RT or DW into DH (although not much - psychic system notwithstanding). It's difficult to do from a thematic standpoint (how would you put a Chaos Marine on a team of Acolytes?), but converting adversary profiles or weapons requires little work or none at all in some cases.

Hope that all made sense.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

And in an ideal world this would be done as a free pdf.

I understand that work is work, and good work should be payed well. But I remember a time when free pdf's were part of a thing called "support". And yeah, I kinda miss those times.

H.B.M.C. said:

Ie not really at all. So far the only ones that are largely compatible (Throne costs of gear aside) are RT and DH. BC and DW are not compatible with each other or the other two. However, I could see this being compatible with Black Crusade.

I also feel that like much of the FFG stuff this isn't going to get the grim feel that Dok Martin mentioned, which I similarly feel is due to its British roots. Many of the things since Black Industry handed it over have had a much more traditional "heroic" and gung ho feel, particularly as the game line has progressed. RT doesn't have it too much (though I feel the last adventure went a bit silly with the Craftworld of Doom), and it isn't that prevalent in mid-Dark Heresy, but Deathwatch is certainly full of it, and the later Dark Heresy supplement's power creep just doesn't fit the original flavour of the game (Blood of Martyrs and Daemonhunter, for example). This doesn't just apply to the actual power of characters, but the sort of "gonzo" nature of some of the events in the adventures ("Ride on a Titan! Mount an Assault in a Valkyrie! Fight a reincarnated Living Saint!"). I worry that this game is going to be a bit "Hua! Marines!" in its style, when I feel it should really be "WW2 Red Army to 11 IN SPACE!"

Ok, guys, stop. This 'British Roots' thing? I'll pick three people at random who worked on this book:

John Dunn
Andy Hoare
Myself

Right there - America, England, Australia. This isn't some single-country 'take' on the 40K universe, it's people from all over the place - including ex-studio staff - all working together.


borithan said:

H.B.M.C. said:

Oh, come on, mate! You can't honestly believe, that was what I meant. I was referring to the colour and mood of the game, it was not meant literally. Sorry if that came across wrong.

H.B.M.C. said:

Presumably the rules will use the Black Crusade rules system, which changes many of the Talents. This also changes some of the balance, so even if there are identically named talents the presumptions behind them mean that the same characters end up working differently in the different systems. Unnatural Characteristics are also very different. Not hideously so in most cases, but at borderline points it ends up being a bit funny if you just port directly.

Deathwatch... well, things are designed trying to balance them to the Deathwatch weapons, which are just completely out of kilter with anything in the other games. This make the weapons incompatible and, as a consequence, the adversaries and vehicles built to compete with them. At the lower levels it isn't really a problem, but it is for many of the "elite" and "master" level enemies and bolt weapons and above.

Skills are also an issue. Characters brought from BC and OW will both be more generally competent due to the collapsing the skills, and characters brought forward from the older lines will now have skills that no longer exist. One particular skill that would cause niggles is the fact that Parry is now a skill, meaning more experienced characters from the newer games will have much better defences than those from the older games (and really hampering characters brought forward from the older games. -20 on all parries for teh win!)

Not that a lot of these can't be resolved with a little bit of work (some of the basic niggles with very little work at all), and it's not that material for the various lines is useless for the other games, as they can act as guidelines, but they certainly are nowhere near "fully compatible", and almost everything needs work. Even the closest of the two, RT and DH, are not "fully compatible", due to the lack of Throne costs for RT gear. Most DH stuff can pretty much be used for RT without any conversion work at all though, aside from psychics and player careers (which don't balance well across the two lines).

Ok, so now we're just arguing over degrees of compatibility.

BYE

There's no such thing as degrees of compatibility.

Its either compatible, or its not.

Just because these games are in the same setting does not make them compatible. Just because the both use d100s doesn't make them compatible either.

The problem is that the differences, though minor, are CRUCIAL- I didn't realize it earlier, but Fusing talents DOES screw over DH characters.

Not to mention the Wonky EXP costs. Or the Changed up stats for weapons to match up with the changed up stats from monsters. Or The added mechanic to make each game "separate and unique".

When you can't take that commissar and put him into the game without changing him considerably, then they aren't compatible. And even if he shows up as a guest star in a DH game- after the mission over, he simply can't keep playing with them because he likely wont be working on the same exp scale.

Well, I would personally hold that large elements of Deathwatch in particular are as compatible with Dark Heresy as 2nd edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is.

I can't agree that there are not degrees of compatibility Saldre. Things that can be used with less work are "more" compatible than others which would take more work to be usable. RT isn't "fully compatible" with Dark Heresy, due to the way character progression works differently across both lines, and the already mentioned (several times) lack of Throne costs for gear, but Talents and skills remain largely unchanged, and the equipment works on similar lines, so stat wise I would feel happy directly porting most things from Rogue Trader to Dark Heresy. I couldn't do the same with most of the stuff from Deathwatch, at least without careful thought (and not just because of the increase in power level), comparing them to similar things within Dark Heresy and seeing how they pan out. Therefore Rogue Trader is "more" compatible with Dark Heresy than Deathwatch.

Rather than speculate over things we know nothing about (Commissar), let's use something we do know about.

A Deathwatch Marine. Let's transplant him into Rogue Trader.


Does he have characteristic values? Yes. They match RT rules. WS is WS. BS is BS. Willpower is Willpower.
Does he have skills? Yup. They're all the same. He might have a couple extra (Tactics), but then again the RT guys probably have a few of their own.
Does he have talents? Again, yes. Are they all the same? Might be the odd variation here and there.
What about traits? Yep. They function.
Do Squad/Solo Modes disrupt how Endeavours or Profit Factors/Acquisition work? I can't see how.
What about Endeavours or Profit Factors/Acquisition, would they mess up Squad/Solo Modes? I don't think so.
Ok well what about his equipment, his Bolter for instance? Well it might outshine most of the others. Perhaps use the errata stats as they're a bit more balanced (less dice, therefore less RF's).
His armour? Well, armour is armour. Both games use the same armour rules, no issue there.
All those organs then? Well they mostly provide Traits, Traits that are pretty much the same between most games.
Alright then, what about in combat - does he have different rules for rolling Initiative, or making attacks? Well no, he doesn't. And even if he did, he'd be following the RT combat rules because he's been ported into RT.
Well what about Interaction Skills, Utility Skills or Lore Skills? They all function in the same manner, so no issues there.

So what about a Marine doesn't work with RT? Nothing.


The problem you're inventing is a blockage where a game's unique mechanics that give the game its character somehow prevent that game from working elsewhere. Having ship combat rules in RT doesn't stop it from being compatible with Dark Heresy. Combining skills? You're making a bigger deal out of that than you should. Moving an Assassin from DH to BC? Well give that character Parry +0 along with the usual Dodge +0 they get. Problem solved.

Each game has a different method of character career progression. So what? If you've brought that Marine over to RT, he uses his tables and the RT characters use theirs. Where's the conflict?

BYE