In another thread, a poster had the view that Space Marines are virtually unknown and considered a myth by most imperial citizens.

I have a rather different view. I always thought Space Marines are fairly well known in Imperial society. Not necessarily on primitive and feudal worlds which are generally cut of from the wider Imperium in knowledge, tech level etc. but on Imperial worlds. That doesn’t mean that many people will have ever seen an actual Space Marine but these angels of death will be lauded as great heroes, their saga’s will be told and form an important part of the galaxy wide imperial culture, statues will have been erected of famous Space Marines, clerics will extol their victories in church, masses will be held when a hero dies etc. They won’t be a distant myth but rather heroes for the common people, much like saints I’d imagine. After all, they have been around for over 10,000 years. This will certainly be the case for planetary governors and senior officials who might be exposed to Space Marines. Knowing who and what they are would probably help….and every governor worth his salt is going to find out who ranks as a peer of the Imperium in case of precedent so chapter masters will be a familiar entity. Most of the fluff books and games also suggest Space Marines are hardly a secretive cult of super soldiers to the rest of the imperium (unlike the Deathwatch).

I’d also assume there are many historical works available to well connected historians filled with information (Just think of our own ancient historical works, from Greek poets to the Byzantium’s Strategicon and Tactica) as well as contemporary works and campaign histories (as mentioned in Imperial Armour fluff). Sure, knowledge is fragmented in the Imperium and the Inquisition likes to burn books but nobles, pupils from the schola and such other privileged people tend to have a decent education. In addition, there is the famous Tactica which spells out many military stratagems and forces, including Space Marines and some common tactics.

So I’d like to know what the majority view is on this. Do people think Space Marines in Wh40k are almost mythical beings with little grounding in actual life for the common imperial citizen or (like me) belief them to be an integral part of imperial culture?

The Exhumed short story in the Victories of the Space Marines anthology is about a Deathwatch Kill-team that works alongside the Adeptus Mechanicus and focuses a lot about your question. Its a good read you should give it a try.

I'd say that the existance is very well known but its very scarce with more reliable information than that. There are a great deal of people who have seen the Space Marines and possiblt interacted in a limited manner with them, but seeing and being given short commands by them does not mean that these people have an inkling to understand the Space Marines, what they do and how they do it. Some better educated Imperial officers and officials may make educated guesses but it would still be guess work.

ranoncles said:

Which church are we talking about?

From what I have gathered is the Adeptus Ministorum, more commonly known as the Ecclesiarchy probably wouldn't sing praise about the Space Marines. Doing that would weaken Ecclesiarchy 's influence on the Imperium. I also believe that the Ministorum would not speak against the Space Marines without just reasons, why wake a sleeping dragon?

As Gurkhal said places with Veterans of campaigns involving Astartes probably have and number of people with tales but these are likely to be as fleeting and exagerated as the Aprocryphal tales that are banded around by the general populace.

In the Guard it would probably be a small number of General's and above that actually had any strategic viewpoint of worth when a Astartes was operating in the area. At Lord General Militant or above they probably had full discolosure about the the Marines effect on the campaign. As a Warmaster or Lord Commander they may even have had Strategic command of some Astartes. But these ranks are horrendously rare (25 Lord Commanders in the Imperium) and many of them spend their entire lifes in the same Crusade lot alone retire to chat to civilians about it. And these higher ranking Officers are probably kept in scrictest secrecy about many of the details of campaigns.

The Departmento Munitorium would have access to a great deal of information however how much any one adept knows would incredibly specific except for the highest levels of Preisthood or higher security clearances.

The inquisition would certainly have had dealings with, and privy to direct information about, Astartes activity, again though, that isn't a high portion of society and their secrecy with such details probably renders it moot for anybody below Throne agent status.

So for the 99.999% of mostly illiterate Imperial citizens it's down to word of mouth stories, the litterate and wealthy enough to access a large enough library might be able to find inaccurate (but flatering) accounts in one of the books that hasn't been edited or straight up confiscated by the authorities.

While you can certainly play it any way you want, I lean towards Marines being quite well known.

It is more fun, to my mind, if Marines are celebrities. Embedded rememberancers are along with Marines to properly record their exploits (just like brave Sir Robin's minstrels). Subjects of the Imperium send letters to Marines, who answer them like Vasily Zaytsev in Enemy at the Gates.

And we must consider the roleplaying opportunities of Marines being ordered to deliver a motivational talk at a primary school, or attend an important fundraising event with the elite of the Imperium.

Face Eater said:

I think you summed it up pretty well.

AluminiumWolf said:

I kind of agree with you. When people see a Marine they are obviously going to figure out just what he is and on worlds that are directly ruled by one Chapter of another, the Ultramariens probably stand as poster boys here, hearing Marines giving speeches or something like that might not be all that impossible. But I would think that usually they have a "high and mighty" attitude to the majority population.

I think most people have heard of them, in a legendary way, and that the Ecclesiarchy preaches about the Emperor's Angels of Death. However, the common man knows no details except that the Astartes are the Emperor's greatest champions.

And another question, will average imperial citizen recognise astartes when he see one? or will he just take one for very tall guy in some sort of kinky armour, couse this guy didnt have wings, and everychild know that all sons of the emperor are 3m tall have wings, wear only leather thongs and shoot **** you lazers from therir eyes...

or he will take one for some half-ogryn in armour, or some sort of "machine" if no human parts are visible...

If some planet was visited by space marines just to resuply, imagine how story of their "visit" may mutate in 4k years time. each generation of illiterate storytellers will add something, cut something else, explain other thing in different way...

I don't think there is an "average Imperial citizen."

I interpret the discriptor "legendary" in this case to mean "beyond the experience of common people", not "something that doesn't really exist". Worlds that have been aided by the Astartes frequently have massive statues of Space Marines commemorating the event, and some places/things are named after famous Space Marines (most notably the Imperial Guard's Leman Russ battletank). Sure, a small number of recidivists may claim that Space Marines don't really exist and are just Imperial propaganda, but I think the average citizen knows that they are out there, somewhere, fighting for the Imperium, but they have no reliable information about them.

An imperfect analogy would be the American military's Special Forces: we know they actually exist and assume that they are engaging in all kinds of secret Black Op missions on behalf of the U.S., but less than 1% of the public knows anything worthwhile about them.

The commoners would know Astartes through statuary, paintings and other religious and propaganda art. The problem would be the fear that most Astartes should produce when seen in the flesh for the first time.

A noble statue or religious painting cannot portray the reality of a 7+ foot tall 4 foot wide slab of armored and unnaturally graceful predatory killer.

I would say they are known as religious icons and as parts of religious sermons to 99% of the Imperium. The few, very few, worlds who have interactions with them would know little more.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Imperial art subtlety being what it is I'd imagine they expect them to be bigger

But some good points being made, any poor schmo that is going to meet them is going to be doing so in a thunderous, chaotic battle and most likely only fleeting visit (again only the top ranks would only have time to have any exchange with them).

And encountering them in port restocking would probably be the stuff of legends amoungst the Navy personel that witnessed those distictive brightly coloured strike cruisers from a distance.

They would of course turn up in the Ecclesiarchys sermons, as other people have mentioned, although these would be fantastic short on detail high on overly dramatic language. For example, in the Calixis sector you'd hear of what planets the Black Templars, Tigers Argent, Sons of Medusa and Charnel Guard Chapters dramatically intervened on during the Angevine crusade (each time responding to a direct prayer) but that's probably it.

As ever though, we want to be trying to give Marines as much interaction with people that doesn't involve combat as possible. It is going to be good for the game if Marines talk to regular folks on many occasions.

I think making them rockstars who small folk actively seek out and take an interest in is going to provide more opportunities for roleplay than if they are a shadowy organisation that does nothing but kill for the Emperor.

Now THAT is an interesting point, Aluminum....can't say i'm in your camp on this (i go for more the legendary feel meself), but good point.

AluminiumWolf said:

I agree that this is a good point but the question is how to do it while keeping the feeling and theme to these supernatural warriors.

In the mankind kingdom, in a cold universe full of danger, the figure head of the space marine is known from east to west, north to south. Maybe not everywhere, feodal and the least advanced worlds are rarely aware of the true nature of the Imperium.

Yes SM are known as knight of the round table are nowaday in our culture...

What is known is the myth, the legend from imperial propaganda, the angel of the emperor.

Yes they are tall, strong, fast and pityless. They are the wrath of the emperor, the death for the ennemy of the humanity.

But what they truly are that's just secrets keep by the chapters themselves. Even SM are not aware of the true nature of their brothers, yes they know quite more than any living soul in the galaxy, but in the end they know about their chaptrer and some allies and guess for the rest.

Then with that in mind, what imperial citizens know is almost nothing. They have seen pictures, statues, paint, hear story and nothing else.

What the imperial guard or navy know is quite the same, only some surviving soldiers having fought near SM are aware of the true bloody and terrifying nature of the SM buit in the end know nothing about.

Officers may perhaps have some more knowledge about one chapter they have seen in action, maybe they have spend some hours with a SM in a strategium.

Leaders of the imperium have some knowledge about the greater history of the imperium and by the way about some SM chapters.

But in the end chapters are mostly secretive, keeping themselves apart from the world. they have other beliefs than the imperium and even beetween them they do not have common beliefs yes they have a core of history, but not much.

Only few chapters mostly ultramarines are known because they are the leaders of their world, they are seen by the people. Like the Salamenders.

But some like the spacewolf didn't even let imperial inquisition come closer to their world than their gun can shoot.

In the end only lords of terra, high ranking members of the AM, highest member of the ecclesiarchy and leader of the navis nobilitae are aware of the SM true nature, their differences and in sometimes some secrets.

So, yes imperial citizen know the image of the SM and is almost as proud as terrified by the myth. But almost none have a real knowledge.

Think of it this way. There is less than 1 space marine per planet in the Imperium. Most people's inteaction is brief by necessity. Space Marines show up to a battle do their business and leave. They are always on the move as they are always needed. for those marines on crusade I think they probably limit their interactions with people to high level commanders alone and even then they do not always cooperate and coordinate. So that tells me that people must form their own opinions of them and quite frankly they will be mythical beings. Records of their passing are all most people will ever know. Even people like the jaded Commisar Cain are at least slightly in awe of them.

If that governor is a Fallen, he could have a lot of knowledge and even a few toys of is own to handle the SM.

crisaron said:

If he's Fallen, isn't he already built like an SM (because he is an SM)? Isn't that in itself suspicious to just about everyone?

I think Aluminium is forgetting the old maxim, that familiarity breeds contempt.

Based on the fluff that has been produced so far, mostly novels (canonality of which can be discussed elsewhere), we've seen that Space Marines don't particularly get along well with mortals. There's little to relate to unless the mortal is a soldier, and even then it's worlds apart, since Astartes don't really deal with any of the same issues as a regular soldier (fatigue, concern over most small arms fire, the fact that that charging Ork is twice their size). Not to mention that modern military forces in real life hate having reporters attached to them, I can't see Space Marines tolerating it anything but less.

And then there's the general mystique that's lost when you turn them in to rock stars. They go from warrior demi-gods to just... suck. And fail. In fact, I've got to say, the idea of them giving motivational speeches at schools or fundraisers is the absolute worst idea I've heard in the history of 40K, the Reality TV of 40K.

Blood Pact said:

Let's remember what Horus did to his Remembrancers. D:

You get legendary celebs. Johnny Wilkinson. Lance Armstrong. The Red Baron. Even Steve Jobs. These are names to conjure with.

Like I say though, it is really easy to paint yourself in to a corner where Marines don't interact with ANYONE except over the sights of a bolt gun. We should be leaping with both hands at any chance to get Marines involved in non-combat situations.

I must make it clear, I think it is funny to see Marines doing the kind of school visits we got from police/fire/army dudes. But we can grimdark it a bit. So the school is the Schola Progenium, the assembly hall is a massive concrete edifice filled with rank upon rank of uniformed preschoolers, and teams of students fight to the death for the chance to be presented to the Marines.

And Marines could, if you wanted, be shameless glory hounds. They might really want people to know about the glory they win for the Emperor. So they have whole teams of rememberancers along to film the action, write poetry and paint images.

AluminiumWolf said:

I could see that of a Space Wolf or Blood Angel with a bit of a pride issue, definitely, and Ultramarines would probably take that sort of thing in stride if nothing else.

Additionally, most Space Marines are always up for giving a good rousing speech/intimidating "don't make me come down there" speech. I remember Boreas riding out to a city riot without armor, just on his bike, in Angels of Darkness. Why? Because that was his city, and YOU DO NOT RIOT IN HIS CITY, PEOPLE. It was cool stuff. Just walked up,everybody fell silent, and he told the leaders to step forward. He told the Arbites to be merciful and only execute the leaders. So, there was community involvement without losing the whole "Space Marines are friggin' scary" thing.

And since Ultramarines actually preside over worlds, they might have a number of individuals who are pretty well known on their respective worlds. When Uriel Ventris wen to the Shrine of Guilliman, it was amongst a bunch of pilgrims, there was no separation there. They all gave him a wide berth, of course, but out of respect and awe. All in all, it was made clear in the book (I THINK it was Nightbringer) that it was no big deal, and the Marines and mortal pilgrims gathered at the same spot.