Hello,

We were having a few games last night with a new group of players when the following occurred during a multi player match.

I had 11 power when the dominance phase had started, also no one had won a challenge against me, I had over four gold in my gold bank and I had won dominance.

I had Jalabar Xho out where if no one wins a challenge you gain two power, I also had the new Tywin Lannister out where if you have 4 or more gold in your gold pool Tywin Lannister claims 3 power, also I get one power for winning dominance. So at the very start of the dominance phase this would have put me at over 15 power and the game should have automatically ended as a victory for me right ?

The confusion started when the Greyjoy player used the Alannys Grejoy characters ability which reads as follows (Response: Kneel Alannys Greyjoy to cancel an effect triggered by a player with 3 or more non-character cards in his or her discard pile).

As far as I know, I would have won the game before this response had taken place, as the rule book states once a player hits 15 or more power the game is automatically over. There was a bit of a uproar and the whole table decided Alannys could cancel Tywins ability before I got the power which would have then brought me to 14 instead of 17 power.

So can anyone confirm who is right in this situation, Ktom ?

You need to be careful about the order of things here. You are not looking at claiming 6 power all at once because three different effects are involved (the dominance framework for 1, Xho for 2, and Tywin for 3), each one initiating and resolving separately. So what happens is going to depend on the types of effects, their timing, and what the other players can do about them.

You beging the Dominance phase with 11 power.

> In the situation you describe, the first effect is going to be Xho. His is a passive effect initiated by the Dominance phase beginning. So in the "beging dominance phase" framework window - right after all cards come out of Shadows - his effect will initiate, resolve, and he will claim 2 power. You now have 13 power. There aren't a whole lot of effects that can do something about passive character abilities, so this is probably going to happen without your opponents being able to do anything about it.

> Next, the Dominance count will take place. Counting/awarding dominance is a framework event. and is simply part of the game. The "award dominance" framework window opens, you win dominance, and you collect 1 power. You are up to 14 power. There are some cards that could interfere with determining and awarding Dominance (Compelled By the King and the Bara Iron Throne are about all that come to mind...), so in the absence of these specific cards, your opponents are unlikely to be able to do much about this, either.

> Finally, you're going to get to the point of Responses to winning/losing dominance, etc. This is where you can use Tywin. Responses are triggered character abilities. They do not have to happen at all. For example, you could choose NOT to trigger Tywin at this point if you like. So, since Tywin is triggered, you cannot say that you "automatically" get his power (and win the game) because effects like Tywin are not mandatory. Further, because Tywin is a triggered ability, there are a lot more things your opponents can do about it. For example, they can cancel the ability when you do decide to trigger it if they have something that cancels triggered effects/abilities - like Alannys. So, you initiate Tywin. Your opponent interrupts its resolution and cancels it. Therefore - as with all cancels - your triggered effect never resolves in the first place. You never collect the power for Tywin, so you never reached 15 in the first place.

(This is just basic save/cancel rules and timing. Saves and cancels truly interrupt the initiation and resolution of the effect, so the initiation happens completely, but the resolution never happens at all. It's what a character that is saved is never considered to have died in the first place - so keeps all attachments, power, etc. - and why an effect that is canceled is never considered to have happened in the first place. So, when Alannys cancels Tywin, it's not like he gets his 3 power and Alannys takes the power away: he never even gets the power to begin with).

So you guys got the correct outcome. You never actually reached 15 or more in the Dominance phase, so the game should have continued with you at 14 power.

Okay, I appreciate you breaking this down. I was wrong, my bad...the Scotch was flowing last night, it clouded my judgement

I even tried to kill Allanys with a "Death by Payne" but of course Greyjoy have so many saves, If he didnt have a save for Allanys I am assuming even if I killed her she could have still cancelled his Ability before her death ?

Also, one other quick question, with Jalabar and Tywin, what if someone has bear island, dominance starts and I would win the game via power on these two characters, can they use bear island to kill the character before I get the power and win the game?

Here's how Death by Payne would work:

You trigger Tywin in response to your winning dominance.
Opponent triggers Alannys to cancel Tywin.
You play Death by Payne in response to Alannys triggering. Alannys is now moribund if she is not saved.
In the absence of any further responses, Alannys goes to the dead pile.

End Result: Tywin is cancelled, and Alannys is dead. You have 14 power.

With Bear Island, its ability is an Action. Here's how the timing would go:

1) Beginning of Phase stuff. Jalabhar's ability works here.
2) Award Dominance. Tywin's response can be triggered here if you win.
3) Player actions. Bear Island can be used here.

However, you won the game in step 2. Step 3 doesn't even begin - the game is over before Bear Island could have been used.

radiskull said:

Death by Payne is retribution for triggering the character ability, not prevention of the ability's effects.

radiskull said: