RESTRICT ALL THE THINGS!

In all seriousness though, combined with Sorrowfull Man hes a total beast!

I haven't played or posted since Black Friday, but the combination of Illyrio, Griff, Young Griff, Meraxes, and Meereen Tourney Grounds means I'm probably going to have to go to regionals, and probably GenCon again.

it really irritates me when cards like this are released that add more depth to a theme that already works (burn) while other themes that are on the cusp of finally becoming viable get nothing. i am mainly referring to GJ Mill theme. Corpse lake is awesome and with two or three more cards the theme could really work. Why add another awesome option to Targ Burn which can already beat the shizz out of most builds when done correctly? What's next to be spoiled, another direct kill event for stark.......?

There's a lot of interesting plays with him. Say you're playing City of Shadows as Targ. You Ambush from the Plains _himself_ into play, reduce by one. Then you bring Young Griff into play, bringing in another character (say Syrio). Next, bring Meera into play, blanking text and reducing by another one. This has all cost 2 so far, for a total of -4 str. Guardian Wolf can join for another 1, so for 3 gold, that's -5 str, easily enough to kill most non-uniques in the game. Night's Watch/Wildlings, here I come!

dcdennis said:

Did FFG not just spend an entire cycle providing cards that boosted mill? That's been a huge priority for them throughout the latest chapter packs?

Also, given that we have seen almost nothing from any houses other than Targ and Martell, it seems a little premature to assume that GJ or any other house is not getting any love.

WolfgangSenff said:

You cannot 'ambush from the plains' Illyrio then have Young Griff enter play using regular shadows entry during Challenge phase. This is because Ambush from the Plains event is a Challenge phase action which takes place after Young Griff's entry at the start of Challenge phase (barring card effects that bring a card out of shadow after the start of phase).

Shadows Tyrion with Young Griff in Lanni Shadows deck. Expensive, but very nedly and beastly, a Tyrion with stealth, deadly, renown, immune to attachments, and 11 strength.

Danigral said:

I must be missing something. Young Griff let's you bring out another card from Shadows, so that'd be two boosts for Tyrion. Where do you get the extra two Shadows?

DCRobb said:

So he is like Tyrion but completly different?

But I agree that he is power creep - as he doesn't have any of weaknesses or problems of other targ tricons but has nice cost of 2+1 and usefull traits + good but situational ability.

Well, they are both 3 str shadows tricons with stealth and excellent abilities. The only real difference is the cost and abilities, but I would not say that Tyrion's ability is better, specifically not 1 gold better.

Perhaps I will be quickly proven wrong saying this, but I cannot think of any character that is so absurdly cost efficient.

DCRobb said:

Whilst Young Griff is very cost efficient, once he's in play he doesn't get any meaner than he already is. His ability to stand things won't get used in a lot of games (although its not too bad in certain decks).

Tyrion can get very big and nasty especially if your opponent plays shadows and he has additional survivability options. Also, an extra gold out of Lannister isn't that big a deal (at least relative to other houses).

DCRobb said:

Maester Luwin

DCRobb said:

I will go ahead and call the obvious exception: Without his Beard! A card so awesome it does not even cost gold!

Sorry, too many podcasts. =)

Dobbler said:

A few more cards like this (ideally for houses other than Targ) will make people rethink the auto-inclusion of refugees, carrion birds, and other low-cost "chud."

For those comparing Young Griff to Tyrion...I don't know this is an easy comparison (apples and oranges), but to the extent that you compare, I think they are both mostly on par. I would have rested easier had YG been printed as a 2-STR character though. That would have made him a powerful but vulnerable addition to the Targ deck.

As far as side-by-side comparisons to Tyrion go... YG has a 1-time ability that won't be useful most of the time beyond the fact that you can bring 2 cards out of shadows that round (really only useful in a shadows-heavy build). In decks built to take advantage of his standing ability - for example, street waifs, maesters, and other characters that kneel to use powerful abilities pre-challenges - he will be particularly powerful. There is potential for abuse here as well, if I can return him to hand for repeated play. I can't think of any NPE combos at the moment, but I'm sure they're out there. In the vast majority of decks though, Young Griff is just a less vulnerable version of Ser Jorah.

In contrast, Tyrion's ability is always going to be very useful. Tyrion's ability protects him (+2 STR, anti-attachments/events) and offers rush potential with renown. Also, it's more likely that a strength boost or protection will be useful pre-challenge than a stand effect (assuming no maesters, street waifs, etc.). At +1 gold, it feels to me like the two are about equally powerful given their costs (and Lanni's easy access to gold).

What bothers me about YG's effect though has nothing to do with balance. It's the "win big, lose big" mentality. Like Hatchling Feast, Narrow Escape, Ghaston Grey, and many other cards, this is an effect that will most of the time do either (1) nothing or (2) run over the opponent. So the card is balanced in large part against the fact it is difficult to use. Cards like this sit in your hand doing nothing for their controller (which is boring) and then suddenly run over the opponent (which is often NPE). As far as design goes, I much prefer cards like Forever Burning or Pyrophobia...not nearly as powerful, but they are useful, require creativity/strategy, and are fun to play with and against. At the risk of opening a can of worms, it seems to me, one quick indicator of whether a card will be either (1) "win big, lose big" vs. (2) a generally fun card to play with is how much card text that card contains. I've always been a fan of simple but creative design (think Darkstar or Flame-Kissed) as a method to keep complex or NPE cards in check. It's an easy way to ensure cards are fun and balanced.

Twn2dn said:

Until the game sees a large volume of playable 1 and 2 cost uniques for each house, then we will always see large quantities of the low cost "chud". Its very difficult to build an efficient cost curve in a deck if you don't include cards like that.

As such, every time you "burn" down one of those cards, you also get closer to your opponent have to use a beefier character for claim. The key with Illyrio isn't that you try to use him to burn down their entire board...its that most often than not, you will not have to commit any additional resources to burning off their claim soak before challenges even begin.

Compare Illyrio to Core Set Drogon (who I still really like). Both have similar results...lower by 1 STR and kill if it hits 0. Both can hit characters with attachments. Obviously Illyrio can only hit non-uniques. Because the STR reduction happens in increments of 1, the most common initial targets will be small "chuds" in order to clear off the board. There will be times their abilities will be combined with other burn cards to burn off "bigger" characters. But as someone who plays Targ burn often, burning off the smaller characters is often more efficient than trying to "combo" burn the bigger ones.

ANd getting back to the Drogon comparison, Drogon requires 2 Gold every time you use him, so he ends up being pretty resource intensive. Illyrio requires no other resources, he just requires doing something Targ does well already. Ambush characters, Shadows Characters, Bouncing characters...by doing what you will already be doing in a Targ deck, Illyrio will massively speed up the burn. And until their are a ton of unique characters for every house in the 0-2 cost range, I just don't see Illyrio's restriction being much of an issue at all.

I have to agree there - the main reason he will be used is to burn off the chaff so claim really hits hard. Considering it is so reuable, that shouldn't be hard - very similar to V. Blade in that regard. I don't probably have to explain that V. Blade is probably the most powerful card (or at least one of them) on the restricted list, and would be considered even more powerful if Martell didn't have 1/2 of their cards on the restricted list.

I would say Illyrio is a bit more breakable, but he also has a larger 'upside' (burning multiple characters in the same phase, a faster way to get to real claim results than waiting for Blade), and - of course - can actually do challenges.

Overall, I would put his control power level right up there with V. Blade which is pretty dang high.

___

alpha5099 said:

It was hyperbole, if an opponent is also running Young Griff.

...

(Actually, I'm just stupid and didn't read the card and I thought you could bring out multiple cards from shadows...)

And in regards to Illyrio, this is going to be one of the best and easiest terminal conditions for Targ. With Dragon Knight and Dragon Thief I can kill a lot of characters, even without claim. High influence melee decks with shadows are looking better now with him and Across the Summer Sea.

I don't understand the Tyrion and Young Griff comparisons. For my money, Tyrion is clearly better than Young Griff. I know it's hard to directly compare but that's my take on it.

Ruvion said:

Ahh, fair enough. Still pretty strong.

finitesquarewell said:

Another parallel, compare him to 5KE Viserion , you're paying 1 gold less for a character who's 1 less STR, trading stealth for a noble crest, losing no-attachments (pro & con), switching from MIL to INT, and can hit attachment-laden non-unique characters rather than uniques w/ attachments. You can say that we're missing the efficient resources that the 2-cost Kingdoms provided (2 Gold for +2 G/2 INF and a minor ability), but there is arguably better location control (and that's saying something), and Targ has some additional options in the 2 slot for ambush. I think he's definitely a 3x, since he's worth dedicating resources to keeping in play, and you can get him out the dead pile pretty easily.

Illyrio and Griff look overpowered at first glance. I've played a few games with them proxied and I don't think they are after a (limited) testing. I don't think Young Griff is anywhere near to being overpowered. I wouldn't run more than one copy in a deck. If he was a Lannister card he'd be ridiculous for sure.

Illyrio:

• 3 cost Ally
• Only hits non-uniques
• Only activates when characters enter play during challenges

This non-unique character aspect becoming more and more important as recent packs are increasing the amount of unique characters that decks are running. There is also more incentive to run uniques with things like the tourney grounds, some of which are very powerful.

He is quite scary to decks that run a lot of 1 and 2 strength non-unique weenies. But, I think we're already going to see a lot less of those in the meta with things like First Snow of Winter and Dissension among other things. He's not close to Venomous Blade in power level. He is more flexible but much more vulnerable and requires many moving parts to use.

Yes, you can run Ambush from the Plains and it helps circumvent his Ally downside, no doubt. However, if you're trying to run To Be a Dragon too you're going to have to cut something. Since Targaryen is very weak in general to locations it's important to run Condemned by the Council. If you're running 3x Ambush, 3x To Be a Dragon, and 3x Condemned by the Council you can't run Forever Burning.

You can theorycraft how easy it is to jump a bunch of characters into play, but it's really not as consistent as you imagine.

Dragon Thieves and Dragon Knights require 2 influence -- a heavy cost. You're not going to be pulling off two of these a turn, except during blue moons, considering the limited influence options out of Targ.

Titan's Bastard is quite nice but if you're running To Be a Dragon you can't really fit in Forever Burning easily which makes him much less effective.

Horseback Archers are the easiest things to jump in for sure but you'll never want to run more than 2 copies in your deck.

Core set Drogo is very nice with Illyrio as well, but the vast majority of people prefer the search version and the Core version is a terrible card to draw in setup.

In summary, if you're running lots of support events and jumper characters to take advantage of him you're going to have to make major sacrifices and you're risking some truly terrible setup hands. Let's say you're running 9 events and something like 7-10+ jumper characters and if you draw them in setup they are dead cards.

Stasis said:

I'm glad you remembered the rule that you CAN'T play Forever Burning if you play those specific 9 events. Too many new players aren't familiar enough with that mandate. Thank the Seven you're educating the masses.

Also, thanks for making bold statements about several cards without any actual reasoning. Why would I never want to run more than 2 copies of Horseback Archers? Do you automatically lose the game? If so I can see your point.

You also make all these notes about how if you are playing all of these jumping characters you will not have as setup. I have two things to make sure you are aware of, though. You DO realize you can still play those on setup if you need to. Just because a character has Ambush doesn't mean it CAN'T be played normally. Also, there's this agenda called "Knights of the Hollow Hill" that takes away that pesky need for a setup and has the added benefit of giving you some easy access to influence (along with, oh say, Kingsroad Fiefdom, Eastern Fiefdom, Summer Sea, Shivering Sea, The Red Keep, Khal Drogo's Tent, and Adviser to the Crown). All of this can be used for ambush and these are all commonly seen cards in a Targ deck. I don't really see much of a downside to slotting in cards that fit into the decks already running these sources of influence.

I am aware that they can be used in setup. Drawing several 2 cost monocons with come into play abilities and putting them down in setup isn't very appealing to me. Maybe it is to you.

Knights of the Hollow Hill... I think it counters Fear of Winter and/or Lannister Intrigue Rush. Getting hit with two or three 2-claim intrigue challenges on turn one or two is nice when you had no setup. That agenda also plays nicely with the very little draw that Targ has

I don't consider Crossroads or Kingsroad Fiefdoms competitive. Everyone has their opinion. If you think they are, good for you. Shivering Sea? That's a very all-around useful card.

Based on the cards you've mentioned that should be put into this deck I'm curious to see a decklist from you. Is it going to be 12 events, 12 ambush characters, 20 locations and Knights of the Hollow Hill? Let me know how that deck works out for you.

If you want to make a deck that kills a lot of characters you'd be better off making a deck with 3x No Quarter and 3x Die by the Sword out of Stark like the deck that won the Moonboy classic recently. The deck has better and easier access to draw and the kill only relies on one card rather than multiple moving parts. Those cards also kill uniques instead of only non-uniques.