I've got a question regarding Shadows timing and "cost" versus "effect" and how they can be comboed (if at all). It's a wording question - some cards say "Response: When [this card] comes out of shadows (which is the cost), then do X [triggered effect]" and some cards say "Response: After a card comes out of shadows, [pay cost: kneel, discard, etc] and [trigger effect]".

Can both of those apply at the same time? For instance:

1. I have The Black Cells on the board

2. I bring Pyromancer's Apprentice out of Shadows - I trigger its ability and name an opponent's location for its triggered effect

3. Can The Black Cells triggered effect still fire at that point since it's not really a cost, but a response? Or does the window close when you use Pyromancer's triggered effect?

Thanks. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the Response window and how add'l responses play into that in a layered situation such as the one described above.

You aren't really talking about "combos" here. You're just talking about when you can trigger Responses.

doulos2k said:

Not all effects will have play restrictions, and not all effects will have costs.

But when you look at something that says "If/When/After Z, do X to do Y," Z is the play restriction, X is the cost, and Y is the effect.

So "when this card comes out of Shadows" is not a cost. It is not a resource that has to be committed to trigger an effect. Rather, it is a precondition that must be true before a cost can be paid in the first place, making it a play restriction. Both "when (this card) comes out of Shadows" and "after a card comes out of Shadows" are play restrictions.

When you are looking at Responses that have a particular precondition (like a card coming out of Shadows), all of those Responses become legal when that precondition takes place until all players have said "I have no more effects to to use in Response to that condition," and the action window closes. It is also important to remember that multiple conditions can take place, making a whole bunch of different Responses that "react" to different things legal, at the same time. For example, when you resolve a military challenge, someone wins, someone loses, a character dies for claim, and unopposed and Renown might be awarded. That means Response to winning the challenge, losing the challenge, a character being killed, and a character claiming power are all legal and can be used in any order a player wants until all players have no more Responses to any of it and the (framework) action window closes.

With all that in mind, it becomes something of an exercise in reading comprehension. Pyromancer's Apprentice comes out of Shadows. So, "this card" came out of Shadows and "a card" came out of Shadows, depending on your point of view. That means both the Response on the Apprentice ("this card") and the Response on the Black Cells ("a card") have had their precondition (ie, "play restriction") met an it is therefore legal to trigger the Responses - if you can. If they are controlled by the same player, that player will decide the order. If they are controlled by different players, the one who does not control the Apprentice (who came out of Shadows, starting this whole window) gets to trigger their Response first - if they want to.

Yes - you're exactly right, that was my issue. I got myself twisted with the response windows and order more than anything else. I greatly appreciate the detailed response. It's so much more clear to me now.