I am currently running the Final Sanction mission and the Kill Team just found the Pit of Filth "Heavily defended by three Magnitude 40 Hordes and a dozen Rebel Leaders."

Against a Horde, I know that "Weapons that can fire on full, or semi-auto will cause additional
hits. These hits must be allocated against the Horde and not any individual Lieutenants or Masters that may also be present."

How does combat work when targeting the leaders? Is it more like individual combat or does the Horde modifier apply, which in this case would be +30 initially?

I think the leaders are solo units which are given cover by the Hordes.

So what does that mean mechanics wise?

Just like targeting any unit behind cover. The cover absorbs some of the damage or, in some circumstances, reduces your BS to-hit roll because you can't draw a bead on the target very well. In other words if you shoot at the Hordes, you won't hit the leaders. If you shoot at the leaders, the Horde may soak the hit for them.

Knowing that "Weapons that can fire on full, or semi-auto will cause additional hits. These hits must be allocated against the Horde and not any
individual Lieutenants or Masters that may also be present." So, this process would only be used for single shots at the leader?

Just to clarify through example: A Tactical marine with a bolter fires a single shot at a leader inside a horde with Armour: Flak Robes and Brazen Carapace Armour (Horde 5) and Toughness 30. He would either take a -20 to hit (using the same as firing into melee) on BS or he could try to blow through the surrounding horde members with damage. In this case he decides to blow through, he hits and rolls 18 damage for the shot. Armour 5 and pen 4 = 1 + toughness of 3 = 4 damage absorbed from 18. 18-4=14. 14 points of damage would then get to the leader who has same armour but 40 toughness. So, 5 - 4 Pen =1+4 toughness= 5 absorbed from 14. 14-5=9. So 9 wounds to the leader and 1 point of damage to the Horde Magnitude.

Did I get that right?

What about melee? How does a marine get through the horde to engage the leader?

Id run it as a called shot to the leader. so unless the marine has skill and or talents to help he'd be at -20 to hit with a ranged weapon. I'd also say that if they missed then i'd allocate the hit to the horde.

Where Melees concerned i'd have at least a -10 to WS while fighting a leader as the horde attacks the Marine.

I like that approach, simple and to the point, thanks!

Est_1987 said:

This sounds too easy to me. I'd agree on the called shot requirement to target the leader (and enforce range modifiers as the leader will often be far behind his front line troops) if the shot can be made at all (can you even see the enemy leader?) but giving the hit to the horde when missed removes the 'penalty' for missing. That way, a player can opt for the called shot and still be 100% certain to damage the horde either way as long as he hits which is relatively easy for a DW space marine with uberstats/modifiers.

As to a melee attack, WH40k style fighting resembles medieval or renaissance combat IMO in which leaders initially just direct their troops until the climax of the battle when the leader takes a personal hand. Or jumps in the battle to provide a morale boost either in attack or defence.

But that doesn't mean they will be easy to attack. They will be accompanied by their bodyguard units and there will be numerous common troops between the attacker and the leader as well. So first you'd have to get to the leader, which means fighting your way through the horde or perhaps flying over it while being shot at for a couple of rounds.

And if you reach the leader, he will be guarded. A single opponent trying to kill the leader will thus be speedily dispatched by the bodyguards unless the leader accepts a challenge to personal combat. So any attempt at melee will mean first cutting down a few bodyguards to reach the leader. And then 1-3 rounds of combat before the other bodyguards join the fray unless they are kept busy by friendly forces....

Perhaps this is not as simple and to the point as the other suggestion but I'd say it's a more 'realistic' way of tackling leaders and makes it also more heroic than shooting him in the head or just walking up to them and engaging them in single combat.

I agree with what you are saying maybe I didn't flesh it out enough as I should've done. I think it depends on whetever the leader is "part" of the horde or not although they will be a seperate unit so to speak they may join a horde or crowd of enemies. If the SM whats to shoot the leader in a crowd but misses its likely that he will hit the crowd.

If the leader is out of the group such as behind a crowd or squad then the rules you have suggested are better as a miss is a miss.

I also totally agree with your melee suggestion a couple of rounds should occur before the SM even reaches the leader in melee comabt and even then he's likely to have bodyguards or be protected.

All good suggestions, thanks!