The Explorator in my group has always been "combat averse" ("cowardly" is such an ugly word...) and although on paper he's one of the more capable combatants in the party the player has always chosen, fairly, to play the PC as reluctant to get involved in any conflict. After all people get hurt, possibly even killed, gear could be damaged and data lost - unthinkable!

Previously this has lead to trying to ignore fights going on around him while he got on with repairing a machine all the way to running off when he and the RT were jumped in an alley, resulting in the RT being abducted by Death Cultists.

I would stress that I have NO PROBLEM with this - it's the way the player always envisaged the character; he's a scholar not a combatant, it's a very suitable "type" for a tech priest and it flies in the face of the combat focused "mini-tank" tech priest that I had in my previous Dark Heresy campaign.

However he's now cottoned on to the idea that with ready access to his personal servo skull and servitor (and possibly a suitable mobile Cogitator (i.e. as the Acolytes use in the novel "Scourge the Heretic")) he doesn't *need* to accompany the other Explorers, preferring to remain on board ship or in whatever local residence they have set up and leaving the "grunts" to do all the heavy lifting while he works on his own projects or offers "remote support".

Again, that all seems fitting to the character and could be quite interesting - however has anyone got any ideas how I can keep this fair - i.e ensure that there's the same amount of risk for him as other players and possible ways to ensure that he can equally contribute to missions without compromising what seems like an interesting and memorable concept?

Wireless technology isn't really that prevalent in the Imperium, aside from vox-links. True telepresence control of a remote servitor is likely to be impossible, the best he could achieve is a pict/vox link that relays what the servitor sees. With that in mind, allow him to keep himself out of the firing line, with the understanding that he has to use the servitor/servo-skull's tech-Use skill, and he only counts as assisting it.

It's all fine and dandy that he stays aboard the RT ship. Until an assassin/stowaway sneaks on board and "accidentally" runs into the explorator.

I would ask him for his character sheet and then ask him what he was making for a new character.

I only half mean this in jest. First, you are splitting up the party, his always gives me a headache when I am running a game and second, anyone who stays on the ship all the time is an NPC.

My view is that this would change the explorator PC to a support NPC.

It is a good idea, it would just be no fun for me. Your mileage may vary.

korjik said:

Which would also make the Astropath and Navigator careers into NPCs as they should almost never leave the ship, partially because of their abilities but mainly because of almost all WH40K novel fluff. They're support staff, not combatants. Blatantly not letting a player do what they want and are completely capable of within the rules is the hallmark of a bad/power tripping GM. Coercing, via story and gameplay, a player into doing what you want is the hallmark of a good GM.

Getting him off the ship is simple and there are many ways I doing it

1) Let him get his hands on a suit of Dragon Scale armor. This will let him feel much safer, enough to accompany the away team. He'll likely still want to stay away from combat, but if he does decide to join the fray now that he's a tank, throw some Armor Piercing mobs as him to calm him down.

2) Give him some reason to go off ship. Maybe there's electromagnetic interference and his wireless signal won't work. Maybe someone destroys his servitor and skull. Maybe the technology he wants to use to wirelessly do everything doesn't actually exist. Or simply have some of the command crew start mysteriously disappearing because theres an assassin onboard; let all the players know the assassin is targeting the command crew. He'd surely want to leave the ship then.

3) Last resort: Have the other players make him go with them. Personally if I were a RT, I'd want my tech specialist there in person, not sitting comfy in his room miles away in complete safety.

Real-time remote control of devices becomes impossible once you start getting into light-seconds worth of distance. Never mind the effects of radiation, hostile jamming and interference from materials. If the explorator wants to guarantee he can even see and hear what's going on, he'll have to go on the away mission.

Now if he goes, he could still hang back a bit with his servitors. But the same issues kick in, albeit to a reduced degree. And there is always the chance he could get seperated forcibly from the rest of the party by a sealing blast door or ork horde... There's safety in numbers and especially if those numbers include combat capable PCs.

korjik said:

I think I would, too. The point of RT, to me, is to go into those bizarre, terrifying places, because only they can take their skill set in, and unlike various xeno/tainted finds, archaeotech is actively sought. The Tech Priest really shouldn't be able to find an excuse to not go; that's what makes him an EXPLORATOR, he DOES want to go.

WhiteLycan said:

This is one of the great terrible assumptions players make in this game (not directing at anyone; just making the claim); every ship has backup everythings, so no Navigator, Explorator, or Astropath has any right to say "but if I die, you'll be lost without me." Your player might be the "preeminent or senior Navigator", but there are still several other navigators aboard, so they won't be marooned if you die. If you think of it, the only indispensable character is the Rogue Trader, the one by whom everyone else is allowed to do their trade, and he/she certainly can't stay on board; they MUST lead from the front. if the bearer of the indispensable Warrant of Trade can risk their tail in a firefight, so can everyone else.

I don't think he could play a puppet master in this game. If he tries to, remind him that nothing he sends will be as durable as a character, with Fate points, possessing Machine (#), armor, and awesome weapons. Screens are fuzzy at the best of times, so his ability to detailed-analyze something they find would be limited, and it's doubtful that any satellite-servant has all of the same gizmos built in, if this Tech-Priest has all of the usual stuff incorporated into himself. Have the Rogue Trader ORDER him, if necessary; they are still, to some extent, in charge, and selected this Explorator to be their tech-aide, in ALL situations. Playing your character to character is nice, and I will always appreciate if my players play their character, rather than their character sheet, or themselves with stats, but no character should be trying to build a character that they don't have to play (even if only in combat).

WhiteLycan said:

WhiteLycan said:

So, my not wanting to deal with a situation I dont like is me being a 'bad/power tripping GM'? Funny I thought I was supposed to have fun too.

If you want to get technical, there is no reason for any PC to leave the ship under the way the rules are written. They are supposed to be the Rogue Trader and his staff, not some redshirts who go get shot at. That even applies to the arch-militant and void master, who should be commanding others to go on most of the missions.

You also seem to miss that the explorator is a coward . 1) wont work because he will just run away from a fight because he is a coward. Then after calling me coercive, you come up with two situations where you would coerce the player or have the other PCs coerce the explorator to make him go along. Since I have had to put up with a character like this before, and know how much of a headache it can be, I skip to the end and just ask the player to either modify the characters behavior so that he will go along with the party. With my group of players, that would not really be a problem. If it were, then i would have to tell the player his character is being retired. Why?

Because I am not going to run a game I am not having fun with. Just like I wouldnt play a game I am not having fun with, If the player insisted that he keep his character, the game would end. With my group, it has happened before, and probably will again. All it means is that we go play something else.

Come to think of it, me starting to hate 4e D&D is why I am posting here now. I ended my 4e game and looked for something new.

Me wanting to have fun too is not coercion, making a player do what he dosent want to is .

Just because a character *can* do something doesn't mean they should always be allowed to. An extreme example: an average explorator has multiple skills that could be used to murder the rest of the party in their sleep. Is a GM "coercing" if they stop that explorator player in their tracks? Hell no. The object is to have a mutually good time, not to roll dice for the sake of it or indulging one player/GM's power trips. I say explain the myriad reasons that the 40k universe makes telepresence a poor idea for his character and go from there.

a gretchin can take out a servo skull...

at some point he should run out of skulls or of friends.

The Captain as the last word, if he needs a tech-priest, the tech priest better follow him, else just get s new tech-priest.

If said Explorator doesn't want to leave the ship, and go explore/fight enemies, then why is he with the Rogue Trader? There are plenty of safe, cushy jobs on numerous Forge Worlds, where he could spend hours pouring over amazing tech, whether new, old, or the good kind of old. If your character is a scholarly tinker, he shouldn't have accepted the invitation of the Rogue Trader; the job would be too risky. Characters on the ship are supposed to leave the ship, like red shirts, because one expects that the baseline RT character is a slightly crazy privateer, out to see the galaxy, get the gold, and just find stuff just for the sheer joy of knowing that no one else has. They go because their bottom line can't trust anyone lesser to get the job done. Underlings wouldn't have your tech-savy, the RT's commanding presence, the AM's sheer combat skill, to cover the escape, or such. Such a little person, seeing such a great treasure, might break it, run way with it, or just lose it to the competition. Watch Star Trek, let's say TNG; the command crew go down on away missions all the time. Riker, Data, Worf, and Geordi blaze trails all the time. Sure, they occasionally take red shirts with them, and those folks often die, but the named folks risk it, too. The Firefly crew don't pick up schmoes, either, but do all their work, themselves. To quote Mordin Solus: "No one else, had to be me; someone else might have gotten it wrong."

One might ask why would you build a coward in a game of high adventure, knowing what sort of things the party would likely encounter. I won't insult you; you SHOULD play the character that you want to, and you should get to play it the way that you want to, but sometimes, the rest of the game will change what they can do. Say you are the coward. Okay, battle comes, and you would run away. This isn't bad, or even dumb; most people who saw Orks, Nids, or worse would. However, does your character have any affection/appreciation for his friends/colleagues? Can he just run away, and leave them all to die, every time? He could easily go into a site, and then the expected ambush. he could flee, he wants to flee, but does he leave them to their fate? Tech-Priests are often known for being some of the best-kitted, most combat-capable characters, with numerous appendages, integrated weapons,built-in armor, access to good stuff, and the ability to twink their gear. They aren't all tanks, but they are almost all battle-ready; their precious tech MUST be protected, and maybe their friends, too. If the TP isn't the one trying to recover the precious tech, he's not following his religion, and if he leaves it to the heathens, to save himself, the Omnissiah, would not look fondly upon him.

As for staying on the ship, if telepresence did work so well in 40k, and I'm not certain it does, would you really have fun? I'm assuming you will say "yes, I already do", but it just seems odd to have one character stay aboard the ship, being represented by lesser avatars, while everyone else is off, doing their thing. One Haywire Grenade, courtesy of a Dark Eldar Raider, and you have no eyes, ears, hands, or mouth, and your team has no access to their tech-guru.

Right - let's clear up some confusion and clarify some points.

I'm not playing the Explorator - he's a PC in the group I run. Also our campaign (after only 12 sessions) has already got quite a bit of storyline/background/political baggage around the crew and characters - possibly worth it's own thread/a blog in future. However clarification of a few points may help.

The reason the PC is with the RT crew in the first place is that he's a free thinking recidivist who is trying to keep away from the "organised" Adeptus Mechanicus. He fled the Calixis Sector to the "wild frontier" of the Expanse so that he could continue his research and invention. The holder of the Warrant of Trade is an NPC RT (father of the player RT), a xenophile and cold trader, the flag ship of the dynasty (and the home base for the PCs) has aquired various xenotech items and thus a tech priest of the PC's "open minded" (borderline heretek) persuasion is valued, even if he doesn't like a fight.

Added to this is that we seem to have missed the fact (or perhaps I didn't adequately explain) that he *does* leave the ship he just doesn't want to head into combat or "obviously dangerous" situations (partially so that he doesn't get involved for too long with any members of the Adeptus Mechanicus from outside the Dynasty) - case in point being that in the current turn of events he is guiding the Arch-militant's investigations on a station from the "mansion" apartment the players are using as a residence. He's analysing data, splicing (hacking) cogitator library records for data, monitoring the other players via comm-bead and his servo-skulls and servitors and most importantly the group, as a whole, is interacting and role-playing and moving the story forwards.

Perhaps I have a high role-play vs combat group compared to most, but I have to say that I was somewhat taken aback by the dismissive and denegrating responses I got. I was hoping for constructive ideas to prosper and promote the player's concept but on the whole I feel I've just had "this is how you "fix" him".

Maybe I've not expressed the concept clearly enough, or am misrepresenting or misinterpretting the responses I have read - for that I unreservedly apologise.

If it's easier to relate to, the Explorator is pitching his position as a "tech support" or logistics man - he's like Emilio Estevez in the first Mission Impossible movie (before the whole squashed by an elevator bit....) or possibly more acurately Villa in Blake's 7; He's a valued asset to the Dynasty, a facinating character who is an intrinsic part of the group but he doesn't want to be in the firing line if he can avoid it and frankly, considering how precious he is to the RT as a resource, why should he put him at risk if he doesn't need to? That always strikes me about Star Trek - why (in most cases) send ALL the most valuable crew on the away missions. One thing that Next Generation seems to do right was Riker's early insistance that Picard *not* go on missions as he was the Captain and should remain in command. Also as an aside - have you noticed that in Next Gen subordinate officers can never just answer a question with full details....it's always "What is it Mr La Forge?" "I think you need to see this Captain." Correct response should be "No - I'm the Captain, just tell me!" But I digress...

The way it currently sits the Explorator is still more than able to role-play (which is the purpose of the game) with the group - in fact of all the careers (except perhaps some Seneschals) he has skills and focus suitable to "behind the lines" work (tech, knowledge skills, medicae etc). The player sees it as a natural extention of the character and his behaviour up to this point and I can see the logic in his decision. What I fail to see at the minute is why there is so much knee juerk reaction to this as a "bad idea".

Is our play style so radically different to the "norm"?

well bottom line is if you and your group are having fun then everything is okay.

some(hopefully) usefull ideas

1. continuing the startrek theme...have your guy solve some problem the rest of the party has run into from the ship( happens every other episode lol); ex a void shield suddenly springs up around the party and they only have ~20 min of air left. it is too dangours to shoot the shield down so the PC has to do some tech thingy to the teleporter to get them out

2. have the ship suffer crippling damage that seals eveyone off from each other, and fighting on there own. the explorator is the only one who can get the variuos doors open again or some such.

3. let him hack anenemy ship/fortress ( mabey have some wierd warp based array to send his thoughts directly into the mind of the maschine)

4. similar note let him go " ghost in the shell" if i remember my fluff right several higher up magos have multiple brains they can swap in and out , have him dump a "spare" brain into a modified severter and have fun

5. or just keep doing this> " case in point being that in the current turn of events he is guiding the Arch-militant's investigations on a station from the "mansion" apartment the players are using as a residence. He's analysing data, splicing (hacking) cogitator library records for data, monitoring the other players via comm-bead and his servo-skulls and servitors and most importantly the group, as a whole, is interacting and role-playing and moving the story forwards. " sorry don't know how to post properly

hope this helps, and if not or i am way off mark i appologise in advance

With a bit more explanation, I'll refine my advice. It's a question of distance and the increasing potential of outside factors to interfere with communications and telepresence. The further away the magos is from the party, the greater the possibility that accident, environmental conditions and hostile interference can degrade or outright block signals. None of those are unreasonable to expect in the Koronus Expanse, perhaps not constantly, but any or all could crop up at any stage. Several planets even in the published material describe interference with communications and there are enemies who would happily jam explorers into a static noise filled hell. I don't think it's unfair that an explorator should have to take these factors into account when deciding just how far away from the party they are comfortable staying. Those factors become less of an issue the closer the distance (taking into account structures and materials blocking signals, such as hives).

As an example, I played a combat shy techpriest in a Dark Heresy campaign and that character would have *loved* to stay miles from the horrendously dangerous situations the Ordo Malleus cell kept finding themselves in. He couldn't, because his expertise were needed on site guaranteed and malefic forces could have easily made a mockery of any attempt at telepresence. That and he was probably safer with the meatshields nearby as opposed to getting assassinated away from them.

Regardless, in a similar vein to htsmithiumt, if the current approach works for you and your players, then fire away.

Well, the options in the GM's hands are the (already suggested) Star Trekky 'I can't communicate &/or control my skull from up here'. Especially places like the Egrarian maze cities - if you can't get a proper scan of the interior for mapping purposes, what makes you think you can send messages in there reliably? Also, the "this ground mission is perfectly safe" that turns out to be dangerous. And "right, the Explorator is left on the ship, nominally in command since he has the highest rank. By the way, while the rest of you are on the ground, the ship comes under attack."

On his end, get him a shield grog (ars magica term) and a security blanket. Let him acquire, say, a custom design of servitor whose sole purpose is to get between the tech-priest controller and any incoming gunfire. Expensive & hard to replace so they don't abuse it, but cheaper than replacing his valuable self. Make landing parties large enough that there is a 'second line' for him to be in. It makes sense that not all characters want to be on the front line. As for security blanket, I'm thinking of some archeotech item that he thinks will make him safe. Ancient circuit board that acts as a charm, or a holofield or 'get too close to me and lightning bolts jump from Techpriest to you' artifact. Basically, things that make it reasonable for enemies to target anyone else.

Oh, and the usual advice of 'talk to the player'. Does he want his character far away from danger, does he want to enjoy playing a rigger, or does he actually want the character in some danger even though the character keeps moaning about it?

Villa doesn't always give in to his cowardice and frequently finds himself with guns pointed at him.

All the PCs need to suspend disbelief, otherwse none of them would go down. Why shouldn't this guy?

Ask the player if he thinks he should get the same ammount of experience points if he doesn't take any of the risks.

I sincerely hope that this character has a low WP score, otherwise he isn't playing his stats.

Get him a Best Quality Power Field (vehicle), a mini-generator and a large golfcart or two ogryn servants to move those. It should cut down 79% of all weapons fire aimed at him, without making him too safe or too out of whack with the other grop members. Sort of like a portable foxhole, really.

Okay, I think I'm about to completely go against veryone elses viewpoint and tell him to go ahead. A character tele-presencing through a servitor is awesome, as far as I'm concerned. This is Rogue Trader - at NO point should ANYTHING override the rule of cool!

As far as I'm concerned, if an explorator wanted to wire himself into a ship and use the powerful augers to remote control a servitor, that's brilliant. As long as he makes it awesome. Maybe he could control a handful of sevitors, which all eerily speak at the same time with the Explorators voice. A small cloud of Servo Skulls moving in a perfectly synchronised display of movement.

If anyone here tells you it's unbalanced - ignore them. If you're trying to maintain balance in this game, you'll fail. Just make sure that the servitor bodies have worse stats than specialist combat characters, he can't spend fate points for his robot bodies and that, at all times, awesomeness is maintained.

professor_kylan said:

Agreed, this is in no way unbalanced. Is he having fun? Is it bothering another player? Is it a least a little bit awesome? If the answer to those questions was yes then give it a thumbs up, worst case scenario is he gets bored of the idea and goes back to playing his character in person. You also get to dangle him over that fine line between Tech-Adept and Heretek and see which way he swings, what GM doesn't love that? Think about it, if he has a proxy doing everything for him eventually he'll want to start upgrading his servo skull, servitor and/or cherub, not much he can do before the "upgrades" start going over the edge.

Check out the Janus Simulacra on page 141 of The Inquisitor's Handbook for the bleeding edge of servitor acceptability.

Well so far it seems to be going well. The balancing factor at present is the party's Navigator (and de facto 2nd in command) who keeps sending the Explorator out on (non-combat) missions/errands he has to do personally, mainly because the PC is still angry with the tech-priest for "losing" the Rogue Trader.

I think it's becoming apparent though that the Explorator is moaning more about being in the firing line than actively wanting to avoid it that much. The player personally likes the mechanics of "doing" combat and I think his dogmatic aversion has left him (as a player) missing the "thrill" a little. Therefore we seem to be heading towards a PC who moans and grumbles and makes a big thing of not being a fighter, but gets stuck in if cornered.

Also, as a "project" the Expolrator has built himself a personal murder-servitor out of the body of previous Arch-Militant PC (gross I know, but the guy is a "free thinking" Ad Mech....) ....once that's complete I think he's planning to hide behind that during combat.

I've been watching this thread from the shadows, and I think that perhaps your Free-Thinking PC might have more to him than meets the eye.

If you're familiar with the other Dark Heresy books, Disciples of the Dark Gods has a cult in it of progressive, non-religious, innovative Tech-Priests called the Logicians.

Perhaps you could spice his life up a bit by having him encounter a Logician starship / Servitor / member. That could be a whole new campaign theory.

The reason for this being that the Logicians also eschew direct combat, and can provide tools and services to tech-priests that are more suited for less combaty characters. Provided he's ok with going full Heretek - of course, progressiveness and innovation are heresy.

My DH Magos is a Logician (of course covertly), and its lots of fun working behind the scenes in non-combat roles while still being the traditionally non-sneaky techpriest.

Magos Militant Arcturus said:

That's quite a timely coment actually as teh crew have taken a brief sojourn into the Calixis sector so that the PC RT can sort out some "family matters". It was potentially going to leave the Explorator at a bit of a loose end "plot wise" but I'm sure there's something I can roll in with an encouter a friendly Logician....

Bwah hahaha....