Hey guys,

I have some questions that have failed to be located on the forum and if it is here, i just cant seem to locate it regarding RtL

1: Going from one level to the next level in a dungeon exiting that level via the portal tile, does the party proceed immediately to the next level or can the party split up and state that they are returning to Tamalir to restock and then enter via the new levels glyph? Or do they all go to the next level and utilise that glyph to go and restock?

2. Can a figure in a tree that is ranged shoot from the tree taking into regard that there are no obstacles in the way?

3. there was a 3rd concern but that i cant remember now.... sunday laziness

now for that little worm in an apple debate.... the whole Crushing Block debate. From what I have read on the forum there is a massive debate as to the CB ideal and how it is utilised and that it can destroy a weapon and armour or something to that effect. My query into this is thus... my CB card states that when a hero moves onto a free tile I may move that hero to any square adjacent to the tile, place a rubble token and deal 4 wounds ignoring armour. the hero may roll 4 power die and remove wounds for each surge rolled. How does this damage armour and weapons or am I looking at the wrong card or have i got the debate completely wrong?

joffy out

As for 1, I don't recall that there is anything that allows heroes to go to Tamalir between levels. I believe they would have to go to the next level, then glyph back.

If you are in a tree, that tree does not block LoS.

In the debates "CB" usually refers to "Crushing Blow" a Treachery card from the expansions. This card specifically allows the OL to destroy an item.

joffy said:

In the case of Frost effects, when dealing 5 or more wounds to a hero(before reduced by armor) frost may possibly desroy the armor if the hero does not roll a blank on one power die for the armor that is 'frosted'.

In regards to sheilds, that above roll is done whenever the shield is exhausted to absorb damage as long as a frost token is in effect on a hero.

Now in regards to the Crushing Block and this above text all in mind, if the OL has the 'Trapmaster' power active at the time the Crushing Block is played, then you are adding 2 aditional wounds to the starting 4 leaving the trap dealing 6 wounds (ignores armor) to the targeted hero. If that hero has a frost token in effect on them, then an above roll for each frost token would be made for the armor the hero has equiped.

Did I get all that right? Seems only logical to me.

And thus begs the question, If that same hero has 5 frost tokens on them, is it going to be harder or easier to avoid the shattering effects on items that frost is supposed to have?

This same case happens with webs as well I find. It should be harder to get out of a 5x web right? Wrong, quantum math dictates that you will get a better chance at rolling the needed surges to escape the web tokens (one at a time) with 5 dice then one at a time with just one web effect placed.

It actually works this way on the table as well... every week I seem to get some one in a web, and as long as I don't over do the web effect (by just landing a single web token on a hero) I keep a hero in the web for at least 7-10 turns vs. when on occasion the hero would have 2+ web tokens and they would be out of both in no more the 2-4 turns(once on a single round with three tokens remaining, thats a strait surge roll on all dice).

Has any one cracked this quantum game theory out on paper? It would be interesting to see the math tables on something like this to actually know if Im right for once lol

Rednek said:

What expansion is this from? I have ToI and AoD..... and of course RtL

Only two choices reamin then ;^)

Well of Darkness or Tomb of Ice.

I own neither so I'll only take a shot in the dark at it....(I'm sure I could look it up here)

I'll say Well of Darkness?

DOH! my blonde moment.... ( no offence to all blondes, just me)

In regard to the quantum math you are indeed correct. the chance of rolling a higher number of surges in one hand will be high at the same time as opposed to individual roll. I remember reading some tome or other about it awhile ago with regards to fundemental shinnanigans.

joffy said:

Problably should call that kinda thing 'evil shinnanigans'....

We could all laugh at that for sure.

Zearthling said:

sorry about all the typo... kinda busy ATM

I'm not so sure about quantum mathematics, but if you look at probabilities, common sense prevails. The more web tokens, the longer you are likely to be webbed. But keep in mind that likliness and probability has very little to do with what you experience occasionally, and more to do with what happens over a long drawn out set of rolls.

For instance, pick up 100 dice - roll them, and get rid of any 5s or 6s. Repeat this process until no dice are left. I guarantee you that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time this will last much longer than picking up 1 die and rolling it until it is a 5 or a 6. Same odds as a surge.

Side note - there is an "edit" button at the top of your post Zearthling, it's nicer than back to back posts.

indeed you are correct there Pinkymadigan, but i think we were looking at the probability of striking a higher number of say surges with a higher hand as opposed to trying to attain the same target number rolling each die individually.

lol, not sure what the consensus of off-topic discussions are like on this forum, but the one that i moderate the users go ape if you off-topic. nice change for once.

Honestly as long as it stays in the realm of Descent, it doesn't seem to bother anybody. If the OP cared, it might be different, but usually it seems people are pretty okay with tangents here.

pinkymadigan said:

Probabilities are quantum in nature to begin with, so let me go further.

In theroy you would seem to have the logical outcome of what you have explained(so I wont poke any 'holes' in it). But I was explaining that the odds of getting out of a single web token is at a ratio of 2(surge):6(faces on the die) or 1:3, while rolling for 3 fold web token becomes a ratio of the same rate but for three dice or 1³:3³ and therefore will end up having higher probability of landing on the surge face reducing the number of dice to be rolled on the next roll each time a surge is shown on any roll.

Now rolling 3 dice, my first roll lands either 0, 1, 2, or 3 of the needed faces on the dice to remove a token per face shown. getting 0 the first time results in a much higher chance to get 1,2, or 3. Roling again and getting 2 will reduce the next roll to only one die, but the odds of getting a face needed has become better then getting blank or power enhancment on the same roll. Rolling a blank or power enhancment on the third roll with one die, will make the odds of getting the needed face for the 4th roll jump exponetialy to 1:2, thats 50/50. Rolling a blank again will reduce those odds down to 1:1, and it becomes a very rare thing to see it go past the 5th turn.

We started with 3 tokens and removed them all in no more then 3-5 turns.(and this happens more often then not on the table in just this way)

Now rolling for only the single token from start to finish, you end up rolling your needed face at 1:3 odds, that should logicaly give us the same amount of turns above(or less)... but it doesnt. The odds never change on the single from start to finish unlike the handfull of dice that shrinks to nothing, so you end up rolling more turns with less dice. So in essence your only rolling at 1:3 odds over and over, never changing the ratio. Your going to need a little luck getting out of just one web token at least ≈66?% of the time lol. That boils down to an average of getting out of that web if not by the 5th turn, then by the 7th turn, and if not by then then almost defintly on the 9th turn or of rolling the face needed ≈33?% of the time. (this also happens more often then not on the table)

With more dice the hero will change his destiny, with less it will be set. This actually folows other trends as well in the game (as with the reason of wanting more power dice for a roll in attacks).

joffy said:

They can split up. The rules say:

Beyond the red rune-locked door on each level is a portal leading to the next level. Once a hero steps onto the portal map piece, he is removed from the board and becomes invulnerable to harm. Heroes remain thusly in transit until all of them either enter the portal or move to town, at which point all of the heroes are moved to the next level.

By the RAW, only one Hero actually has to enter the Portal to have the party proceed to the next level. The others can go back to town instead of using the Portal. And since the each level starts with an activated Glyph, they can come back in from town at the start of the next turn for 1 MP (as far as I know, its they way we always read the rules. Other reading is that all the Heroes start on the board on the next level I guess.)

Also, the web token mathmatics depend entirely on if you are playing regular or RtL for Descent.

In vanilla Descent, you roll one black die for each web token.

In RtL, you roll one black die for each web token PLUS all of your black power die that you roll for Melee. So any attempts to figure out the math behind web tokens in RtL need to account for a Hero having anywhere from 0-5 power dice.

And at that point, why would you want to?

Big Remy said:

No I wouldn't want to, I'll admit that... but I have a very bad curse that involves impossible fractals playing 'ring around the roses' stuck in my head....

At least it sounds like agrement that it only gets worse for the OverLord in RtL when it comes to the 'old standby' web....

It doesn't get worse, it's just diminishing returns. One token on average goes away faster than two on average, which go away faster than three on average, this extends infinitely, though the average does not increase by the same amount each time, as the amount the average increases begins to go down each time. You can try this for yourself with dice. I'll even write a quick program to roll it for you thousands of times if you want me to repeat the process to get really conclusive results.

I'm not exactly sure where quantum anything comes into play, but probabilities certainly do, and they average out as common sense dictates.

pinkymadigan said:

Well seing as how I just got done sitting in as Overlord yet again, and putting this all to the test (yet again), I put two hero's in webs. One hero had one single web token, and the other had two by the end of the same turn.

Hero 'A' (with one web token) was stuck in the web for 7 (yes seven) complete turns (the only thing that took the web off was Hero death on round seven).

Hero 'B' (with two web tokens) was stuck in the web for 3 complete turns (this hero I was not able to kill untill 5 complete turns after the hero with the one sigle web token was put in its grave).

I'll thank you for the kind words of input, but I'l be sticking with my quantum probabilites and you can stay with your definitive probabilites (if you can even say such a thing with out making it sound like an oxymoron).

Now I'm not going to start saying that you can't go ahead and make an OGRE that will back your threom up, that's an easy thing to do. But I will start saying that anything an OGRE can do... I can do better. (Sorry Evil Stevie!)

joffy said:

Since most of the answers so far seem to have devolved on a tangential path, I'll start this from scratch.

1. The party changes between level when there is at least one hero in the portal and no other heroes in the dungeon - ie, the non-portal-ed heroes are in Tamalir either through glyph-ing there by choice or dying. At that point all four heroes are placed on or around the starting glyph in the next level. Restocking may have been done during the previous level or done in the new level by glyphing to Tamalir. It is not 'automatic' for any hero.

2. Yes. Trees block LOS through them, not in or out. They give Shadowcloak, which prevents non-adjacent attacks (in), but not LOS and not attacks out.

CB - there are 2 CBs. Crushing Block and Crushing Blow. Nearly all the debate on the Forum is about Crushing Blow (which is used replacing the attack any time a monster hits a hero and destroys any equipped item of the OLs choice). You appear to have the two mixed up and intertwined. Crushing Block does not do anything to weapons or armour.

Frost tokens only kick in for Armour during an Attack - so a crushing blow that does extra damage through trapmaster would still not trigger a frost tokens armour-destroying capability. As a shield cannot prevent damage that cannot be prevented by armour, it also would not be affected by a Crushing Block/Frost token combo.

Corbon said:

Well it seems counter intuitive(as if the hero took all that damage because he wasn't wearing his armor) but what the hell lol, it does say attack . Too bad as well because after reading it the other way I had it some how, I was planning to do it (I'm only crafty because the Hero's are out to kill me and steal all the nice things in my humble homes right?)... You have saved the life of a party member for sure (not to mention the item they steal from me )!

There must be some whacky science going on behind people's "quantum math." Are you rolling more dice even after tokens are returned? Someone already had a good example of how the probabilities show that having more than one token should make you last longer but I'll try to explain it another way.

A person with 1 token needs to roll 1 die and has a 1 in 3 chance of rolling a surge. So he has a 1 in three chance of escaping the web token.

A person with 2 toeksn needs to roll 2 dice and has a 1 in 3 chance of rolling a surge on each die. The probability of rolling two surges is 1/3 * 1/3 which is 1 in 9. So the probablity of the person escaping are 1 in 9. Now there is a 2*1/3 chance of the person rolling at least 1 surge, which is a 2/3 or 6/9 chance of losing 1 web token. Now that 6 in 9 chance includes the chance of rolling two surges, so we need to subtract that out, so the odds of rolling exactly 1 surge are 5 in 9. Therefore: A person with 2 web tokens has a 1 in 9 chance of losing them both, and a 5/9 chance of losing 1 surge, which leaves the 3/9 or 1/3 chance that the person loses no web tokens.

Just esplaining these two situations it clear that more web tokens result in more turns lost. The person with 1 web token has a 1 in 3 chance of losing it and acting as normal. The person with 2 web tokens has only 1 in 9 chance of losing all the tokens are acting as normal. Therefore: there's less chance of a person acting sooner with the more tokens piled on.

Am I not understanding how web tokens work, or are other people confused? It sounds like a lot of people out there might be playing it where the player only needs 1 surge to lose a web token, or that he always rolls the full number of dice until all the web tokens are wrong. Isn't it 1 die per web token every turn and you lose only 1 web token per surge and then recount and roll the new number of dice on your next turn?

Zearthling said:

It's still the same day so I'll say that again. Now I'm not going to say anything else on this subject here. This is not the thread for 'string theory'. Any one else agree?

Big Remy said:

Who are you and what have you done with Big Remy?

RtL Pg 17

When the heroes enter a new dungeon level, ...
Once the overlord has set up the dungeon level board according to the map, the hero players place their figures on or adjacent to the activated glyph as normal.

Where is there any option to have figures starting a level in town and 'glyphing in'? How do you get your 'reading? A houserule, possibly, but a legitimate RAW reading?

Zearthling said:

It's okay if you'd like to play believing you are right, but you aren't. Yes, occasionally one hero will have a bad string of luck with a single web token. But you could have a bad string of luck with two web tokens, or three web tokens, or four. Your math is terrible and has nothing to do with quantum math at all.

Secondly, probabilities aren't definitive. That's why you have situations where a hero gets stuck with one web token for longer. But I gaurantee that more web tokens = statistically longer probability of being out of action. Take a math class.

Corbon said:

Not even close to being a legitimate RAW reading, its called my players couldn't make it to play for about a month and half and I appear to be out of practive.

Time to go read the rules all over again

Thanks.