Hello and welcome to chapter 5. I hope you are all enjoying the series so far and are not yet sick of me! Regular readers may have heard me go on about losing some of my Tolkien collection. Well the other day I decided to replace some of them, and the day they arrived I was clearing some cupboards out and guess what I found? I don’t know whether to be pleased or annoyed at my own stupidity. So I’m currently going through the history/ early drafts so you can look forward to a light-hearted chapter in the near future all about the entertaining ‘could have beens of middle earth.’ (think a tale about hobbits defending the shire against a dragon attack…yes…it gets even better..) Anyways…..

I had to put this one off for a week as it’s taken so much **** research that its given me a bad head (but was all the more enjoyable for it). Though this chapter may be shorter than others, it is no less (and perhaps more) detailed, and answers to these questions certainly do not come easy. Main sources for this one was Morgoth’s Ring-history #10 which Christopher Tolkien takes his father’s notes on this subject and attempts to draw some conclusions. How well does he do this? Well we’re about to find out: these are the points I am going to cover…….

-RACE DESCRIPTIONS – WHICH ARE THE SAME? WHICH ARE DIFFERENT?
-WHERE DO ORCS COME FROM-ARE ORCS IMMORTAL?
-AN ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM OF CHRONOLOGY
-CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

RACE DESCRIPTIONS

Orcs and Goblins

Here, believe it or not, there is no difference. They are both interchangeable, a fact we see Tolkien use often, sometimes even using goblin and orc in the same sentence, regarding the same creature. I’m not sure where the idea that they are different comes from, though I think it is likely that the cross-usage of terms causes a lot of confusion, and the films probably didn’t help this fact.

Orcs and goblins refer to the species as a whole. So to use an example, if we take the word- Cat. That would be the equivalent of orc/goblin- it describes a species as a whole, taking into account tigers, lions, house cats etc.

Orcs were first ‘created’ by Melkor in the pits of Utumno- his first fortress, where he spawned his many twisted creations. How they were created will be dealt with later on in this chapter, as it is a topic of debate in itself, and even the pretty much accepted ‘corrupted elves’ theory is not certain. But it can be said with certainty that they were created from some other race- Melkor could not create life on his own accord- only the Creator Eru could do that (even the dwarves were not given life after Aule secretly made them, it was only after Eru gave his blessing that they were given true minds).

Orcs were vile, pitiless creatures, who took delight in death and destruction. If they couldn’t fight an enemy they would fight amongst themselves, often over petty squabbles. As orcs were creatures of darkness, they hated the sun. They didn’t perish in it, unlike trolls, however it caused them much discomfort, and they needed to be driven under threat of death or pain to march under it. This was obviously a big disadvantage to their masters, so a better, more refined breed was made. The Uruk-Hai.

Uruk Hai/ Hob Goblins

Here it would appear that these two are also alike in meaning, hob-goblin being Tolkien’s early word for larger orc types in The Hobbit. As is usual with Tolkien, many ideas he came up with in the Hobbit (being before the trilogy in creation) were used in the trilogy, however are given separate names in the narrative.

Note: Here Tolkien uses the usage of the prefix HOB- ie, HOB here means large (as in larger-goblin) however in most mythology hob-goblins are the opposite-small.

So what exactly are the Uruk-Hai? Well lets first get something out of the way that may be confusing film goers. Saruman actually didn’t first create the Uruk Hai, they were first ‘bred’ (again this will be discussed later) by Sauron in Mordor around the year 2475 of the 3rd age. They attack and swarmed over Osgiliath, the defenders being off-guarded by the new stronger breed of orcs. They were Mordor and later Isengard’s fighters, and they often fought against their smaller counterparts in quarrels over plunder, orders etc. and thought the smaller orcs to be mere work slaves.

Note: The word for orc slave is Snaga, which we see used several times in the trilogy. In the past it was theorised that Snaga was in fact a different breed of lesser orc, but it is generally thought to be ‘slave.’ It was also given to the smaller swifter orc trackers.

Unlike their smaller ‘standard’ cousins, the uruks did not fear the sun.

Half-Orcs/Goblin-Men

Again there appears to be another pairing of terms meaning the same thing. Half orcs and goblin men appear very little in the text of the books, and it may be that goblin men was just a phrase of the other, a slang if you like, and they were the same thing. But there defiantly appeared to be a ‘watered down’ cross breed of orc/human.

So half-orcs can be seen as a more human breed of Uruk-Hai, as they resemble men more than any other type of orc. They are primarily used as spies however, and they appear in Bree in The Fellowship of the Ring (perhaps because they could blend in better?), and they follow Saruman after his downfall to The Shire. In fact it is very likely there were half-orcs, or at least evil men having dealings with The Shire early on, before the events of the trilogy, as Saruman is seen to be trading pipe weed for his own use. A deed he carried out in secret due to previously scorning Gandalf for using the ‘Halfling’s leaf.’

Tolkien hints in his notes that it is likely that Melkor was the first to experiment with the cross-breeding of orcs and men, and that Saruman came across some ancient source of his lore, and took it up himself.

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WHERE DO ORCS COME FROM? ARE ORCS IMMORTAL?

If we take the (almost fully accepted, but certainly not final) theory that orcs are corrupted elves then this raises a bit of a question- are orcs immortal? What happens to them in death? The elves are immortal, and are neither affected by illness nor age, however are still vulnerable to forced death (ie mortal wounds). When this happens they go to Mandos’ halls (think Hades) where they await their time to return. So does the same happen to orcs?

The problem with all these breeding theories is that Tolkien constantly changed how orcs came in being. He already tended to change his mind a lot, which was a habit he had, so paired with this, we see many different changes that Tolkien makes, and he never really settles on one single theory. In later life, he became dissatisfied with the Silmarillion theory of orcs from elves, and began trying to come up with a better answer.

To find the answer to my question we must therefore determine whether orcs were in fact derived from elves, for if they are not, then that certainly helps us out a lot (and in typical Tolkien fashion opens up even more questions).

So I am going to discuss various notes Tolkien made, and will refer to them as note A B C etc. and give in the title the general theory he was putting forth. I have placed important areas in bold.

NOTE A- Orcs came from beasts/elves

Tolkien in this note stated these facts (at the time) about orcs-

1. Only Eru could create life with independent will- which orcs seem to have as they can both serve and rebel their masters
2. Therefore orcs must be made from some corruption of something else already living
3. Orcs were already present before the awakening of men. The newly awakened elves by the lake of Cuivienen were terrified of being taken by creatures that Melkor sent, however much of this was rumours sent by Melkor himself (though the Silmarillion does indeed say many were taken). Early Orcs couldn’t be men.
4. Eru as stated would not give independence to Melkor’s creations, unless…he though them ultimately redeemable and could be saved (finished with a ? beside it)
5. Melkor could not corrupt an entire race- the case of orcs had to be inheritable at some point, and this must have been the work of Eru (if indeed this last point is a fact, which Tolkien didn’t state either way). Therefore the orcs from elves theory is put into doubt.
6. Other species with free speech and will are not yet accounted for ie. beasts such as the eagles- some of which were Maiar in eagle form. Therefore could then some of the greater orcs be Maiar? Some of the lesser ones that Melkor is said to have turned to his service early on? If so then do they become earth bound as they become older and more corrupt? This would explain how some orcs seem to be immortal. (the great goblin is a strong contender for a lesser maiar…see NOTE C)
7. Speech however cannot be seen as proof of an independent spirit. Even though orcs spoke, much of it just rhymed off records set by Melkor, and even Sauron is later said to have devised a speech for his orcs. Therefore orc speech can be seen as the equivalent of a parrot speaking- it is merely copying. Even the orc’s treachery and hate for their masters still placed them as carrying out their master’s ultimate goal- evil. This points to orcs being no more than lifeless beasts made to mock the forms of elves.

Tolkien then ends the note with stating that saying Melkor could not wholly corrupt anything was going too far. Melkor could be seen as starting this off with ‘lifeless’ beasts, then mating the end results with the later elves to further create the true orcs. Therefore there is a strong possibility that there is elf blood in the early orcs. Thusly in death they go to the halls of Mandos and are held in prison to the end.

The problem here is that in a single note- Tolkien is contradicting himself, as stated by his son Christopher (editor of the histories). Tolkien states at the start that orcs can be no more than beasts, and in fact Christopher ends by stating his father had written at the bottom of the passage yet again orcs are beasts. However by the end he is starting to state they may be from elves, and have their blood in them. Therefore why conclude at the end, after stating the theory of crossing beasts with elves, that orcs are beasts. Was this a final word on the note? So that we may disregard all of it?

This is just the start of what becomes an ever more complicated set of notes. It is difficult to discern what Tolkien left, and what he later discarded as an old idea.

NOTE B- Mixed origins

In a separate note Tolkien explains how Melkor, though not having powers to create, did have great powers of distortion and corruption of those who came within him. He then concludes that orcs had mixed origins, and were mostly likely a mixture of corrupted elves, and later men, and most likely had in their ranks (leaders) who were fallen maiar. This would explain how some orcs had exceptionally long lives, and some did not. The ones that crop up again were leaders of the orcs and were likely maiar.

NOTE C-Early orcs maiar/spirits

Here again we have Tolkien writing a completely different note on orcs, dated later on from 1959/60.

In this text Tolkien explains how the orcs of later wars at least (after Melkor’s return from captivity) were capable of craft and speech- and concludes that these orcs were not the same orcs the elves had feared at their awakening in Cuivienen, which was very early on in the history of Arda. He therefore states that the ‘early’ orcs were in fact corrupted maiar, taking elf-like forms in mockery of them. Tolkien then goes on to write the following…

NOTE D- Orcs came from men

Tolkien starts with the same passage as note c- that orcs of later years were much different to the terror that the elves saw after their awakening. He then makes two very important (and related) notes, the first regarding the theory that orcs were corrupted men. The second on a point that arises from it.

1- Those who state orcs derived from men cannot be correct regarding these early orcs. Men had not awoke then, only elves had, so therefore it was not possible for men to be taken when they were alive in middle earth yet!

2. However soon after this, when Melkor returned from captivity he very quickly had a huge army of orcs to attack elves with. How? If they were not elves, and men had not awoken (because we must assume given the speed the army was raised the orcs had to already exist during Melkor’s captivity), then where did they suddenly come from? (for an answer to this see the chronology heading).

Tolkien then states

“the view of the origin of orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable.”

He then goes on to explain many similarities between men and orcs- most notable the ability to become ill, and die of old age (for here Tolkien states that orcs had a lesser life span compared to the Edain).

This last point he goes on to explain, as we know of several orcs who are seen to have a longer lifespan than men. He thus says, as previously stated, that those orcs (usually great captains) who in the early days lived long lives and crop up several times were in fact fallen maiar, who having business to direct orcs, took their forms.

Note: there is an interesting footnote here that states Boldog comes up several times as an orc in the history of middle earth. It is theories that instead of Boldog being a name it is in fact a title for the orc-maiar beings, which were still maiar, just less formidable than balrogs for instance.

After this Tolkien states a point that the men could be corrupted to an ‘orc-like’ level of existence, and then be forced to mate with other orcs, creating a more formidable breed of orc (see half orcs/goblin men), and that Saruman likely found this lore many thousands of years later.

AN ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM OF CHRONOLOGY

At the end of this note, Tolkien finally gives us a formed answer to the problem of the timeline and how orcs fit into it.

The thought of orcs was created in the mind of Melkor- he bade his spirits take hideous forms to terrify the newly awakened elves, and it is these the elves see at Cuivienen, and their intent was to mock and cause terror. However the actually core breeding of orcs was left to Sauron, who Tolkien states was ever cooler in thought than his master, and during Melkor’s time of captivity, it was Sauron who bred the vast armies that were available at his return. It was from men that these orcs were created.

…..and yet again we run into a problem. For this to work men would have to awake much earlier to be taken during Melkor’s captivity. Therefore it was likely an unfinished task of Tolkien before he died to slightly bring forward men’s emergence into the world.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

Well as you can see, there really isn’t an answer that was ever officially taken. Tolkien, if he had lived to change the timeline may have settled on men, or he may have changed his mind again. I think the concluding theory to take away is the early orcs, and several of the orc leaders were maiar (as this crops up in several notes) and the vast amount of orcs, especially in later periods were bred from men, and were certainly not immortal, which may seem strange as it is never changed in the Silmarillion, but remember Christopher Tolkien- again editor of the Silmarillion, firstly published the notes in Morgoth’s Ring much later than the Silmarillion, and secondly he really didn’t know for sure if he would be correct in changing it to men, and he would have to change a lot of his father’s work to fit it in, therefore it remains elves in the book.

As ever I hope this was enjoyable and/or informative and if you have comments or opinions please post.

Sources: Morgoth’s Ring (Myths Transformed)/ large amounts of black coffee

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As always, great work rich. Not having the HME series (only the Lost Tales), I didn't know these confusing orc origins, all these maiar and men stuff, and I thank you for taking light (pun intended ) to the orcs.

Regarding Saruman, the films are very confusing about Uruk-hai, and gives a wrong idea to people who doesn't read the books.

Congrats. Go on pal. Just looking forward to the next chapter .

thanks man, pleased i was of some help

keep reading and ill keep writing

ps. how are you finding lost tales? i havnt yet given them any priority due to their distance from tolkiens (lets call it 'proper') work

rich

I haev finally read this through. A great read indeed. The Maiar thing was most surprising to me but perfectly logical. I have always liked the idea of corrupted Elves as it parallels the beauty and filth.

Then I have a question that must have been answered many times but I do not remember seeing the answer in either Silmarillion or the few "histories" I have read. Where do the dragons come from? I know they are connected to Morgoth but how do they come to life if he is not able to give it?

thanks for taking the time to read

i dont think it is ever stated....a safe bet is that they were maiar who took physical form similar to balrogs and like balrogs ended up becoming bound to their forms that they chose

- it could be argued that they were forged through melkor's power to be beasts under his domain (ive seen some sources state he created them through 'fire and sorcery')- without the real life that only eru could give, however this doesnt hold up because we see the likes of smaug lived quite independantly and can talk and think for themsleves well into the 3rd age- much like balrogs- so yes- im gonna go with MAIAR

ill do a bit of hasty research into the more obscure notes, but i dont think tolkien ever said in the core material

rich

I noticed you've had a lot fewer replies on this one than other Tolkienonology chapters. I just wanted you to know that my not reading this one is not due to lack of interest but because I've decided not to read anymore of your chapters until I finish the Silmarillion, for spoiler's sake. I should be finished next week and will jump back into your articles with both feet!

thank you for saying that- until a recent conversation i had actually decided to hit them on the head so to speak and let them be, im not meaning to sound at all bitter, but it does in fact appear that fewer and fewer people are reading, or at least commenting, and seeing as thats my only way to gauge success less replies=less interest, so it appears that its had its day

my idea with these was to go into depth, alot into depth, maybe that is putting people off? or are they a tad too long? the problem is with great detail comes great length

anyways i am yet to decided if i want to continue- if i do it will be with the same effort and level of detail as usual, as i dont see any point in doing them otherwise, ill maybe do it every fortnight or something- there certainly wont be one this coming monday as i havnt planned any out

i understand that the 'newness' has gone, so one can expect less comments, but my attempt is to make a chapter interesting enough to spark a debate on the comments after it, and this i welcome as per usual. its also to inject a bit of a personal aspect at the start of each chapter to make it less tedious and more blog like.....but.....i guess we'll have to see

.....maybe i should start each chapter with a really controversial statement like my last errr 'forum battle' that has got into 50+ comments.....yep p*ss everyone off before they start reading haha

anyways thanks for the reply budgernaut

Wow - I hadn't realised there was a chapter 5 until seeing it here at the top of the pile! Evidently, it got buried in all the stuff that's come since.

I'm still loving these things, anyway - to the degree that I've been investing in more of the Histories to properly immerse myself in Tolkienology. And I started reading The Hobbit last night! I've already been in raptures since seeing several familiar names crop up in the first chapter alone, but that's another story entirely. I'm still really enjoying these posts, Rich, please continue! The orcs one is one I found particularly interesting as it wasn't that long ago I looked into this myself, as I was curious as to where the name first appeared, given as how orcs appear across all kinds of fantasy literature, and was surprised to find that the wikipedia article on them seemed to state Tolkien invented the term himself. All that business of where they come from and so on clears up quite a lot of haze I'd been thinking through - something the movies just seem to thicken than anything. The idea that there are "clever" orcs seems a bit at odds with the general perception of them as well - or at least, how Games Workshop has used them in their own output.

Keep up the good work though, anyway!

thanks alot spalanzani. yes it got buried the first day. seems my long founded plot of pushing for sub-forums has still worked against me ...blast! haha

you can sub. via a feed on the series site which is in the article, so you can stay updated

its interesting you note GW. a good few years ago when they first did the line of lotr models- i remember they had a very clear cut idea (false of course) of what orcs were.

you had your goblins which were exclusivly moria based. then orcs in general were from mordor. uruk hai were split into isengard and later mordor

these types of things spawned by the movies really dont help to get the proper information out there. for instance im guessing it would surprise alot of people who hadnt read the books to learn that uruks were in moria - which was why i was pleased when we saw the black uruks card.

im pleased youve started the hobbit- it is my joint favourite along with the fellowship. words cannot express how much i love those two books

as for the term orc tolkien did indeed 'invent' it, however he did use older words as basis, but yes, all those WoW or GW orcs all have tolkien to thank

thanks for reading again...stay tuned for another at some point....hopefully the coulda' beens that i reffered to

rich

richsabre said:

Just missed that completely. Well, it was a long time ago when I read the Lost Tales, and I have to recognize that it was a hard reading, and not what I expected. At that time I wished more and more of Tolkien and saw a new book, and expected something new. Not the first conceptions and ideas of what finally came to be the Silmarillion. Anyway, this game, and your tolkienology series have made me want to read the rest of History of Middle Earth books. Maybe I should firstg read again the Lost Tales with new eyes, after so many years.

richsabre said:

Hey, don't make me sad. I have also noted that the last chapters had less comments that the firsts, but I think you should keep going with them, because they are great. The apparent fewer interest will change I think (wish), but I for sure want you to continue this great work.

Greetings.

thanks as always robert....i shall continue...hopefully a week on monday, or perhaps ill start a new day off

the history series starts properly with book 6 return of the shadow, and continues (regarding the trilogy events) to book 9- sauron defated, i think they are the 'core' books if you want to get into the drafts and so on...i think with all the series you have to go into it really interested and absorbant of tolkiens work, otherwise as you say it wont be easy reading.

i am finding them endlessly entertaining though, though i still need to get my hands on a copy of the 8 and 9 books

thanks

rich

Thanks Rich, I wish you would continue the work, though it is understandable to lengthen the time between articles. Thanks to your "essays" and recommendation, I'm now reading Unfinished Tales, and plan to read Simillarion after that.

thanks for stopping by angus

rich

richsabre said:

I have a question for you then, about the orcs and such. Now, I may have mentioned here or elsewhere that it's been years since I read the trilogy, so I may not be remembering correctly, but did Tolkien start this whole thing of them speaking with Cockney accents? I know it's a daft question, but it's been niggling at me for a while now!

In addition to LotR, I also collect the Warhammer LCG, which also features orcs as a playable race, and is very definitely heavily slanted at having them talk with a Cockney accent. There's a lot of use of "git" as well. I know they have the same accent in the Jackson movies, but I really don't remember them being anything like that in the books (when their speech was given at all).

What got me thinking about this is the scene with the trolls in The Hobbit, where Tolkien kinda gives them a rough, "docker" kind of speech, which he says something like "it wasn't proper drawing-room speech", which had me howling with laughter incidentally. I know I'm probably making a misty mountain out of a molehill (couldn't resist) but it's a bit of a niggling point!

Incidentally, I am loving The Hobbit! So much more of this LCG makes sense to me since I've started reading it!

im really pleased your enjoying the hobbit, and thats a really good question.......now obviously tolkien never stated that such and such orc said 'blah blah' in a cockney accent, as south eng. wasnt in middle earth, however it is stongly implied that they spoke with a less than well mannered accent..and there are also many words spoken my people to imply that, words that probably tolkien knew were broad slang in the uk, and due to his southern location he thusly used cockney as a basis.

now whether it was because of tolkien locations in england that this took off or not i personally dont know for sure, but as for the films, other countries in the world tend to have a limited view of uk accents. this is a silly example but take south park and family guy and basically every hollywood film with 'uk' people in them.....ive noticed they only ever have 2 accents -cockney, or royality level poshness. there is no inbetween which is irritating becuase there are so many accents in the uk, birmingham, newcastle, wales, glaswegian, cornwall etc.

so i personally think orcs can talk in whatever flavour of accent as you like, as long as its a broad, roughness.....im northern cumbrian guy, so im used with the cumbrian lingo, so i could imagine them talking in a northern accent, others in uk may think differently.

to answer your question generally though, im really not sure when or where exactly it took off

richsabre said:

Just out of interest, where does this idea come from? Is it in one of the History books?

i was just meaning tolkien lived in england and studied/work/wrote there....i havnt yet studied the history series to make much more than that out yet...but if i do ill let you know

Hey rich,

I just wanted to let you know that I very much enjoy the things you write. I don't usually comment, because I don't feel as though I have much of any substance to contribute - but I'm sure I speak for many of the 'silent readers' when I say that we really appreciate your work, even if we don't comment!

cheers radiskull! didnt even know you read.......silly really.... i never even thought about the silent readers out there

Hi, Rich! Great job on another fantastic chapter! You have my thanks, from across the pond. Your chapters got me interested in reading the books; I am almost done with The Hobbit. I am looking forward to following the book with a viewing of the animated movie. Good stuff!

Your latest entry did spawn a question in my mind. In the Two Towers movie, they show Uruk-hai being pulled out of birthing sacs from the ground. Is this how all orcs/goblins are created? Do the books go into detail what has to be planted to sow an orc? Or are there female orcs? (bow chica bow-wow) Any insight you can provide would be appreciated.

Yours,

Pericles

hey man thanks

no the birth of the isengard uruks was a complete creation on pj's behalf, there's nowhere that states thats how it happened, and in the notes its stated that orcs bred akin to the children of illuvatar ie sexually therefore there must be orc women about somewhere either kept at home and used just for breeding(i dont think mordor had given them the voting rights in the 3rd age ) or they looked and acted the same as orc males

funny but probably untrue theory ive heard- gorbag and shagrat were lovers.....horrible thought but one that has very little (none in my opinion) basis

hope this helps

rich

Well, I finally finished The Silmarillion so I am visiting this page again. It is very interesting that there is so much unknown. When I started delving more into Tolkien lore I thought (coming from a Star Wars background), "This is going to be great because there was only one author rather than a bunch of people with different ideas, so the history has got to be easier to handle." Boy was I wrong! But it's interesting to consider that, even in Greek/Roman mythology there are conflicting stories that are commonly accepted by different folks. In that sense, Tolkien really succeeded at creating a mythology, not just a story.

yes, very true, in fact it feels very much like you are part 3rd age of middle earth, and many of the tales out of the silmarillion are mere legends out of the past which you never know which is true and which isnt

Budgernaut said:

Ha! I thought exactly the same thing! How wrong we were. It does feel more cohesive though, don't you think, coming from one guy - even if he changed his mind a bit!

I've finished The Hobbit the other day, and it was a truly magnificent read. So much of this LCG makes sense to me now! I feel like I've only been getting a fraction of the story so far. The Silmarillion scares me a bit though, being so far removed from what I know of middle earth, so I think I'll work my way up to that. Got the Unfinished Tales on the horizon for me next. Some of them, maybe, at least...

yeah unfinished tales is part silmarillion which youll need to have read it to understand, and the other half (more interesting in my opinion) refers to the 2nd/3rd age

there''s some absolute gems of stuff in there

also if you are scared of the silmarillion- which i dont blame you, try reading the last part 1st, ie the rings of power and 2nd age as that isnt really part of the sil at all, and gives some great extras to the trilogy material

and also try before that- akallabeth- which deals with numenor, if you get stuck the chapter i did on it should help, and also thers a chapter in unfinished tales that should add extras

------as a final note, expect a new chapter this coming monday!!!! working on it tonight!!!