I always thought that the grappling meant that it was just +20 on WS tests to hit/interact a grappled/grappling character?

Mind you, those options are open after that... humm. (the options you offer are a bit... PC killing though?) I thought about knocking a character prone, then grappling/ stunning - that would leave them open to a (hopefully not lethal) kerbstomping.

The Pheramone thing sounds hilarious.

Save the meltabomb for a high-level Tech Priest or some other "tank" that seems invulnerable to anything else. I used it on my groups Rank 8 Tech Priest, and he actually survived (!).

You should have enough to play with for now, but if you start getting frustrated or stomped again, just come a-asking. There are many, many ways to challenge players that are growing arrogant and supremely confident in their abilities

Darth Smeg, you are a bad bad man. In such a good way. Sticky-Melta bomb on the bum indeed. Was that idea by chance born out of your thread a little while ago on how to frak over a Tech Priest? That thread was good fun.

Jeans Stealer, I love your handle, I can imagine a whole 40k comic strip with that as a running gag.

"Ha ha, caught 'em with their pants down!"

"We're being over-run by jeans-stealers!"

"What, not again! Do you know how hard it is for the departmento to get this style in my size?"

"Oooh jeans stealers, fabulous, me first!"

"B b but I'm going commando, and errrr, umm, I don't want everyone to think I'm a mutant"

On a more serious note, r.e. Full Auto into melee: we play on the -20 into melee rule. If you miss, but would have otherwise hit if it wasn't for the -20, then any successes that fall into that -20 are applied to allies. Shooting into melee just isn't smart, UNLESS:

In the game I play in my Assassin has just got a spoor targetter on his Hax Orthlak MKIV and all the gucci ammo you can poke a stick at. Let the tanks engage, and let rip anyway knowing you won't hit them.

Zakalwe said:

It does sound a little-bit OUCH. That Mook/bad guy must have been getting free beers off his mates: "you smoked an Acolyte! AWESOME! Let me Buy you a -" and at that moment, the still - smoking meta-bombed Tech priest kicks in the door with a compact MP Lascannon.

Smeg's right, I have plenty to go on. Session is on the 14th April, so I'm a week or few away lol - I think I'm just trying to clear EVERYTHING up that's bothering me (do NOT want a repeat of my first Campaign.)

Even with the -20, my Guys still blaze away into their friends. It's not enough. However, I've come to a solution, I have to run it by them. As far As I'm concerned, it suits nicely -

Full/semi-Auto can be done while engaged or firing into combat.

Single shot is exactly as you describe, plus an extra -10 for every extra opponent above 1 your target is engaged with.

However, whereas single shot has a -20 modifier if you fire at an engaged target, Auto doesn't have this modifier - first, calculate your hits against the WHOLE Combat and then roll a D100 for each of these hits - if two combatants, 50% chance of each combatant (1-50: Target, 51-100: Ally) If three, 33/34%, if four, 25% etc. Three of my players have agreed to more dice rolling, and with one roll per hit, I think we'll get away with it.

Size modifies the roll by it's bonus modifier, so with hulking and two combatants, it's 60/40, three is 44/28/28, and so on for bigger things.

I know many won't agree, but I dislike the idea of blazing away with allies in the way. As for Full-Auto whilst engaged... I know word of God said 'NO' But I kinda like the idea of Uzi under the chin. OR I could take the +20 away for auto (as all bonuses for single dissapear anyway...)

I knew that eventually I'd have tankers, and they'd spray stoppers with no love for their mates' well-being - Even Kasrkrin have shot-denial on their hellguns against allies! Mind you that's an awesome helmet-upgrade, it costs the same as auto senses, and it denies the shots against your friends above (instead though it wastes the shot x1 ammo.) Just a thought.

As to my Handle... I had this image of The Swarm ships descending, the spores ploughing into the earth, the hordes massing... and then the London Trocedero, Meadowhall, The Trafford Centre and every other shopping centre and clothes-shop from Europe to Dubai being sold out of every pair of jeans in one night. Okay well no not quite. But Deviantart and Imric2151 (I think) is to blame with Stealer-Chan (how funny is a 'Stealer wearing Jeans on it's head? turns out it's worth a minor chuckle.)

"Sir, they took our Jeans!" "by the emperor, soon they'll look like us and have all our genetic powers!" "well, no sir, but they'll certainly be fashionable, They took my favourite boot-cuts..."

If you don't want them spraying bullets into a melee, then just stick to the rule option that says all hits from such a burst must be distributed randomly on the fighters in the melee.

The maths can get a bit wonky in this game. Going with Zakalwes suggestion (which I use also) that a miss caused by the -20 penalty actually hit your targets opponent (usually your friend), then if your BS is 35 (and you are shooting at normal range, so no bonus) then you actually have a greater chance of hitting your friend (20%) than your target (15%).

So in that case you are actually better off aiming for your mate, because you are more likely to hit his opponent

Zakalwe said:

This makes me all warm and tingly inside

And, yes it was. Maybe. Don't remember. But it was a good idea anyway. And a lot of fun. As was the thread

Darth Smeg said:

That's basically what my house rule says (with cleanup for options and various situations, but yeah, it's random with everyone in the target 'zone' at risk.) I've typed the whole thing out, but am thinking that putting up the copypasta would be... Heresy. Regardless, I shall if you wish to see it (but it may not be the thread for it, either, which is FURTHER Heresy.)

The rule makes sense to me, which is exactly what I wanted, as I'd feel happier enforcing something I trust.

I don't feel happy with the idea of saying 'NO!' I'd rather say 'yes, but...' so my rules will be veto-ed by my players at some point this week or, if unable to do so, ON the session day (which would be regrettable.) Plus they LOVE auto. LOVE it.

If they take to the new rules, I will have to present them situations where they can happily hose down ALL combatants in a combat (ie. No allies, different bad-guy factions slugging it out, in comes a scum with an autogun, BRAAAAAP 4 dead. Everybody wins )

My Assassin loves full auto as well. Everyone else in the party is packing heavier pistols like bolt pistols in particular, but who has the highest body count? (yes, it's the melee/ranged generalist bad ass Assassin ASS whoopin with his heavy autopistol. He doesn't full auto his mates though, but with the spoor targetter* that is no longer a problem.

To my actual point now that I've had my fan-boy rant, for house rules, keep them as few, and as simple as possible is my advice. It makes them easier to remember (you would not believe how important this is) and prevents them slowing the game down

*In case you don't know, a spoor targetter counts as a sight, and is programmed with the IDs of your mates. You can fire full auto into melee and it cuts out when it is pointing at them. Nice aye?

I know I know, But when they love Auto-ing into their mates I have to make them regret shooting like that, there isn't enough threat for them of ice-ing their comrades.... and although the rules are only (slightly) more complicated and longer for shooting into combat, I know someone who would argue 'but I'm shooting at him' and a whole new world of mathematical pain begins in order to sort it out...as I wrote a rule specifically to deal with it.

From your response there's no urge to put the house-rule up so I won't bother you with it. probably best I don't.

Highest body count eh? awesome. also where does one get one of those targeters? which book? Or are they GM Magic?

Well I had to look it up and it is from Ascension. We're rank 6, but I asked and GM gave. The old rule, 'don't ask means don't get', so I asked.

We have a very generous GM though. He actually offered me an exitus pistol! I said no no no, that's the slippery slope to getting my pc into the temple you sneaky GM. I'm not so sure I need it anyway, my PC has a Hax Orthlack MKIV / Inferno Pistol Combi-Pistol with fire selector, surpressor and spoor targetter. Clip 1 is 12 x Blessed Amputator Rounds, clip 2 is 12x Manstopper rounds, and clip three is 3x blessed inferno pistol shots. Sounds like pretty heavy firepower already and way-cool if you ask me.

Don't even ask about the rest of his gear, even I think it is crazy. We are decked out better than ascension pcs but the GM keeps telling us we need it so who am I to argue?

Eeee Gads.

You're quite Decked out right there. I'm a Stingy b**tard, They'll be paying through the nose lol naa really I'll just see what they want (one of them wants a dog... no lies. Flak for the dog is on the cards.)

I've also got a Psyker and Untouchable in the party and neither knows what the other is (and the pysker player has no idea, a 'hole in spacetime' has been following him round...)

Battleboards... I may finish the campaign with one of these.

Hmm, I recall having read about combi-weapons, but can't recall from where.

Wasn't that just for Basic weapons, though? And added a 1-shot launcher? No?

Auto-shotgun with attached anti-psyker crossbow? too weak. Nade launcher with auxiliary Nade launcher. Boom Boom. (for those of English decent, the Basil Brush joke was too hard to pass up...)

Anyway, have we become slightly distracted and gone off topic? is this heresy?

The enemies in EoD are not too hard. For Characters who are more prepared, they're a walk in the dead park, a mono sword or a mono great weapon will ice them. Lead will fly, bad guys will come, and the GM will fudge it if it gets painful before the last scene. and if they do end up in stabby range... they all have MONO SCALPELS!

Jeans_Stealer said:

If you have to ask, it is safe to assume it is!

ASKING IF HERESY IS HERESY IS HERESY

14th April, I'll see how they do...

RESULTS

**SPOILERS**

So, Yeah. I finished my first "Successful" campaign. It went well, everyone had fun… But the enemies.

Body Snatchers: No problem. Treat them as AB2 totally though, they move too slow otherwise, get them running.

The Churgeon - Awesome. No changes. She escaped, and I used the Grav-belt-harness to do it in a fancy fashion, it annoyed my players no end, they want her head on a platter.

The Scalpel Familiar - Holy Crap, this thing is evil. Decide wether it gets the (2) points of natural armour, because modern (tearing) will kill players before they can bump it off. I had to fudge rolls with a TB3 character with Flak armour - It has Swift attack and is at -10 to hit it, and if you don't have a CC character (like I didn't) It'll pull Characters to pieces.

POINTS TO REMEMBER

Get at least one character who can fight well in Melee.

AP Bullets - don't discourage their purchase (although some enemies will be a walk-over.) counteract this by giving all enemies in-built laspistols/lascarbines.

NEXT: Gateway 17! Hell yes. They're chasing leads on the Rose Cartel - Perhaps Moran will be in the middle of cutting off the 'trade' agreement?

Glad to hear it went well.

As for the balance thing, you'll get the feel for it as you play. But even so expect to make some unbalanced encounters every now and then. It really doesn't matter, though. If a fight is too easy, the players get to feel like badasses. Which is nice. If a fight is too hard, the players have Fate Points, and get to be reminded that it is still a dangerous world. Which is nice.

I find I lose track of the details in a fight, and as such I fudge a lot of the maths. I can't be bothered to keep track of exact damage with pen/AP and TB reductions, I don't look up exact criticals and I cheat like crazy. The important parts (imho) is to keep the flow going, and to make it interesting and fun.

If done wrong, a fight is reduced to just sequential exchanges of attacks. As the enemies queue up in the choke point (staircase, doorway, whatever), ready to replace their fallen comrades in the front line. Then it just becomes a mathematical exercise and a game of attrition.

Done right, a fight involves tactical choices, the use of scenery, dramatic movements, stuff blowing up, swashbuckling heroics and spectacular takeouts as enemies go flying from rooftops, cranes or moving trains, etc. Add timers and countdowns to give a sense of urgency (5 rounds to the bomb goes off, disarm while the others hold of the enemies. Reach the train before it leaves in 7 rounds, etc etc). This prevents a static fight with everyone digging in for the duration.