Customary start. My questions relate to the enemies your players will face.

+++++SPOILERS++++++
Basically... the enemies. Are these really enemies a lvl 1 can face? A group of 5-6 could certainly do it, but 4? Humm. The enforcers (with which fighting is not recommended) need 8 points inflicting to cause 1 wound, and prim weapons don't stand a chance. I assume that these guys, who in one salvo can cleanse a PC from the face of the game, are meant to be a 'attack only in small numbers' kind of opponent? My players will want man-stoppers to take them down, and the game doesn't really give lee-way for man-stoppers - there's simply no-one around who has them! I don't really want to break that to the PCs, and I rather like the 'enforcers' the way they are without nerfing them... but I suppose I could make Man-stoppers available? (And mono weapons, for that matter.)

Now, the rest I don't mind, except for The Bodysnatchers: are they too hard? Is their natural weapon supposed to NOT be a natural weapon? I’m treating their full move as 4, and their attacks as a primitive natural weapon, and it takes a weight of modern weapons-fire to bring them down. Now I've had bad experiences with armoured opponents in the past, but for level 1's is this about right?

I’m just... curious. It’s my first campaign that seems to be going well, and these opponents seem a challenge, I just want other's opinions. How did you change EoD, if at all? Did you feel the opposition was TOO much of a challenge?

Hey hey!

I am going to say no- not at all. In fact, things are actually a bit too weak!

Granted, my players didn't fight the Enforcers, you'd be surprised at what they can get at the right if they work together.

By himself, the assassin was able to afford a mono-great weapon. He's been one-shoting almost everything since then.

Now the body snatchers, without a doubt, need a boost and not a nerf. The humonculie too... My players ended destroying these guys.

Now keep in mind its a Roll-playing game as well, so depending on how lucky they are the monsters may be easier or harder.

There are several ways you can handle this, depending on your players- from the Chirurgeon sending out better, improved models as the nights and days go on, or simply upgrading them from the start but giving them directives to kidnap not kill and retreat if they meet too much resistance.

As for the enforcers- Luntz' blades and minions can even the tide of battle if the players find themselves in too deep with these guys. But truth be told, unless the players really screw up- or you feel deviously evil, they should not encounter the entire army of Enforcers: most of these guys are too busy defending the Enforcer headquarters and they will retreat with Mordan if things at the Alms House go bad.

Edit- to answer your questions: if I were to play again, I would make the monsters stronger. And stress the passage of time too- my players managed to finish it in a day and a half, but that was my fault: I let them do too much in a single day.

so, they're not hard enough? (the body snatchers?) huh.

So you didn't have to give the PCs access to man stoppers or mono-edging? I know they can pick up some awesome stuff from a dead Moran, or an enforcer who's dead...

I basically have an autogunner assassin, a psyker with an auto pistol, an adept with a stub-pistol and mono sword and a techpriest with a steelburner. they all had to gang up on one and it took a full auto burst at point blank to smoke him - my concerns are if they face four of them (as proposed in the notes) alongside a plainclothes enforcer. can they inflict the 56 wounds necessary? well... they only really have to inflict 28-30 before the heretek creations fall back I suppose, and the gangers can intervene... So 1d10+5 CC damage (modern) is not too much for 4x lvl 2 PC's to take? some of them only have 8 wounds... I think I'm worried because I don't have 4 killers, I have 4 role-players who are all a bit down on certain capabilities.

If they come accross enforcers they couldn't hurt them with primitive weapons if they tried, they need mono or gunfire, and getting 8 from 1D10+2 can be difficult sometimes. They've been talking about getting man-stoppers but their worried it's not available (which it's not.)

Next question... torches. wtf? so... bonuses to perception / awareness tests, or simply 'you can see this far?'

Then fudge it!

In my experience I constantly underestimate my players capabilities, and they tend to wipe the opposition out without breaking a sweat.

But if you're worried about the opposite problem, my advice is: don't!

You can simply cheat if they appear to be in too much trouble. After all, the players don't know how many wounds the bad guys have, so at a dramatically appropriate moment (when the players have taken a sound beating, and appear to be losing), have the bad guys flee. Who cares if they still had lots of wounds on paper, the truth is what you say it is

And if all else fails, that's why the PCs have Fate Points. They exist to be used and burnt after all, and you can always cook up an excuse to hand out more if the PCs are approaching 0 and death

You know... That's all very true.

...but my first DMing experience was a lesson in entering a death-spin wearing paper aeroplanes as a parachute. If anyone has to burn a fate point in the second session of EoD I'm simply wondering what is going on, and what the DM has been doing to players.

I agree I can 'fudge it' but I'd rather it was just 'right' to begin with. Underestimating my players... yeah agreed. I simply won't know what they're capable of until I throw it at them. Still, a bodysnatcher with an advanced natural weapon is a one-shot character killer at 1D10 + 5, surely?

Anyway this question again... torches. wtf? so... bonuses to perception / awareness tests, or simply 'you can see this far?'

1D10+5 is not so bad. It will do 10-11 pts of damage on average, from which you subtract the targets TB (usually 3-4) and AP from armour worn (again, 3-4 for readily available armours). So a successful hit may well cause around 2-5 Wounds in actual damage. Again, on average.

Melee fighters have an option of Parrying, and combat oriented characters will probably have Dodge. Both allow a test to completely negate all damage.

As even the most puny starting characters will have around 8 Wounds, and can survive a few pts of Critical damage, you will most likely NOT see one-shots here. You might see some pain and punishment, but it should be manageable.

As for torches, check out the section on Lighting on p216. Darkness imposes penalties on observation tests, and movement, and a torch will cancel these penalties within its radius of effect.

Ah so if it comes down to who the thing goes for, make sure they've got armour on. 5 wounds is pretty bad if it gets 2 hits in (unlikely) but in EoD obviously you want them to be ready for the final fight against The Chieurgeon, so I may stick with Natural weapon (primitive) for the Bodysnatchers.

Humm. Not AS bad as I thought I suppose, but still... 1 auto-rifle toting fighter, an autopistol toting psyker, a mono-sword/stub-revolver wielding adept and a steel-burner wielding techpriest... Humm. I must be thinking too small, They likely can handle it. I made such a mess of my first campaign that I don't trust what I pit them against any more.

Ah so lighting. Dang. That clears it up I suppose, if the DM assigns a distance to lamps, globes and torch beams, then those areas are bright, and everything else is darkness, depending on the lighting anyway - this covers the penalties in combat too. However, if you're using a torch, it can only really light up the area you're pointing it at, right? or 45degress or something like that?

New question... firing into Combat, by being in combat too. By my reading, autopistols can be fired full auto at an opponent you and someone else outnumber 2-to-1, with a -20 modifier for not hitting your own dude, and a +10 for outnumbering, +20 for full auto. depending on what kind of DM you are... decides whether or not they'll shoot their friend by accident.

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

Just thought I'd point out that by the DH rules, Auto Fire is a killer.

A semi-profficient shooter with 35 BS will on average score 2-3 hits with Full Auto Bursts at Close Range (<45m with an Autogun) with every attack. Each of these will do 1d10+3 damage, which averages at 8-9. Reduce for average TB at 3, and you're still dealing between 10 and 18 DMG to an unarmoured target, every round.

Some rounds you'll miss, others you will hit with more hits, but on average you're still dealing significant damage.

The maths:

Full Auto (+20) at Close Range (+10) with BS 35 = 65. Of 10 Attacks you mill miss 3, and hit with 7. The 7 hits will with a flat distribution of results score 0,1,2,3...6 Degrees of Success, each adding 1 Hit to the 1 granted by the "Simple" success of the test.

(Not quite true for 10 Attacks, but for values over 30 you should see pretty flat distributions across the range of possible results. I'll assume even distribution for simplicitys sake)

Ie your 10 Attacks will result in:

3 misses
1 hit with 1 shot
1 hit with 2 shots
1 hit with 3 shots
1 hit with 4 shots
1 hit with 5 shots
1 hit with 6 shots
1 hit with 7 shots

This adds up to 28 hits, over 10 Attacks.

Now watch your bad guys blown to pieces as your Acolytes start wielding 2 Autopistols and blast away at full auto

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

- Have read the Errata. I read it repeatedly and routinely as it clears up a lot of stuff that i miss. My Players don't...

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

- agreed, checked, covered. Thank you!

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

-I'm really starting to agree with this, I'm seeing so much Auto-fire in CC I don't like it. This will change for me.

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

- agreed, i confirmed this 'pistol only' with the book. The single shot thing though... I dunno, I can see people seeing that a full action blasting away is what they want to do. They'll likely hit their mates instead. i knew about the modifiers though, which is something. Full actions such as defensive stance or guarded attack... surely full autobursts require (potentially) less concentration than those actions.

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

-hey if this player wants to blaze away, let him hit his friend, he should realise the danger! agreed though, no bonus (the full-auto bonus only, if I continue to allow auto in combat. I may have to do so just so that the psyker feels useful.)

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

-bodysnatchers can't run strange as it is! the darkness though... they only engaged their opponents inside the glow-globe's radius, so no darkness penalties so far, but I remember the -30(BS) or -20(WS) etc.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

isn't it -20 for using a basic weapon in one hand? (pg127) but I agree about the other stuff. I suppose the torches 'see 45deg in front of you up to 12 metres' is up to the DM then. Globes are easier, 360 degree clarity!

New question... grenade maximum range? 4x (3xSB)? I'm not sure, can't find anything on it.

Also... hell yes, Auto IS a character killer. it kills NPCs and enemies in seconds, I need to make it more deadly to PCs! I feel that if I want to give an NPC an autogun who may use it on the PCs, and I'm not sure if they can take it, I replace it with a lasrifle as a rule of thumb.

What i've learned thus far: Some rules clarifications, and that I need to make auto in combat bad. also, Bodysnatchers and armour-toting mercs are not as bad as I had been led to believe...

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

- Have read the Errata. I read it repeatedly and routinely as it clears up a lot of stuff that i miss. My Players don't...

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

- agreed, checked, covered. Thank you!

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

-I'm really starting to agree with this, I'm seeing so much Auto-fire in CC I don't like it. This will change for me.

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

- agreed, i confirmed this 'pistol only' with the book. The single shot thing though... I dunno, I can see people seeing that a full action blasting away is what they want to do. They'll likely hit their mates instead. i knew about the modifiers though, which is something. Full actions such as defensive stance or guarded attack... surely full autobursts require (potentially) less concentration than those actions.

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

-hey if this player wants to blaze away, let him hit his friend, he should realise the danger! agreed though, no bonus (the full-auto bonus only, if I continue to allow auto in combat. I may have to do so just so that the psyker feels useful.)

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

-bodysnatchers can't run strange as it is! the darkness though... they only engaged their opponents inside the glow-globe's radius, so no darkness penalties so far, but I remember the -30(BS) or -20(WS) etc.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

isn't it -20 for using a basic weapon in one hand? (pg127) but I agree about the other stuff. I suppose the torches 'see 45deg in front of you up to 12 metres' is up to the DM then. Globes are easier, 360 degree clarity!

New question... grenade maximum range? 4x (3xSB)? I'm not sure, can't find anything on it.

Also... hell yes, Auto IS a character killer. it kills NPCs and enemies in seconds, I need to make it more deadly to PCs! I feel that if I want to give an NPC an autogun who may use it on the PCs, and I'm not sure if they can take it, I replace it with a lasrifle as a rule of thumb.

What i've learned thus far: Some rules clarifications, and that I need to make auto in combat bad. also, Bodysnatchers and armour-toting mercs are not as bad as I had been led to believe...

This game is all about modifiers. And they can add up fairly quickly. But there also some limitations to be aware of, some which are added in the Errata (read it!) others that are handled through Rules Questions to the developers, answered here on the forums.

- Have read the Errata. I read it repeatedly and routinely as it clears up a lot of stuff that i miss. My Players don't...

To clear up a few of those right away: The bonuses for outnumbering opponents only apply to melee attacks. You get no bonuses for shooting at someone just because someone else is also shooting at him (p198/199 specifies WS tests)

- agreed, checked, covered. Thank you!

Shooting into a melee, where you are trying to hit the bad guy and at the same time avoiding hitting your friends, is Hard (-20 to BS). Worse, if you miss or use auto-fire there is a chance you will hit your friends instead.(see p196).

-I'm really starting to agree with this, I'm seeing so much Auto-fire in CC I don't like it. This will change for me.

If you're in melee yourself, you may only fire Pistol weapons (no rifles, etc), and you may only fire single shots. Range modifers do not apply (ie, no +30 for Point Blank even if you are closer than 3 m).

- agreed, i confirmed this 'pistol only' with the book. The single shot thing though... I dunno, I can see people seeing that a full action blasting away is what they want to do. They'll likely hit their mates instead. i knew about the modifiers though, which is something. Full actions such as defensive stance or guarded attack... surely full autobursts require (potentially) less concentration than those actions.

So if the bodysnatcher is on you, waving his nasty arms around, it's single-shots only with the autopistol, with no bonus/penalty to the BS test. (You're not shooting INTO the melee, you're close enough to avoid hitting your friends).

-hey if this player wants to blaze away, let him hit his friend, he should realise the danger! agreed though, no bonus (the full-auto bonus only, if I continue to allow auto in combat. I may have to do so just so that the psyker feels useful.)

Your autogun-toting Acolyte would want to lay down Full Auto fire against the approaching enemy, which at Close range (<45m) would be a BS+30 test. (remember to apply penalites too: If the Snatchers are running they are harder to hit, darkness similarly give penalties to hit. Once the snatchers engange his allies in melee, he might change to making Aimed Single Shots, which at Close range would be BS+20. This cancels the penalty for shooting into melee, but the chance to hit your friend is still there.

-bodysnatchers can't run strange as it is! the darkness though... they only engaged their opponents inside the glow-globe's radius, so no darkness penalties so far, but I remember the -30(BS) or -20(WS) etc.

As for the torches, remember you need a hand to hold them in, which means no Basic weapons or two-weapon combos.

isn't it -20 for using a basic weapon in one hand? (pg127) but I agree about the other stuff. I suppose the torches 'see 45deg in front of you up to 12 metres' is up to the DM then. Globes are easier, 360 degree clarity!

New question... grenade maximum range? 4x (3xSB)? I'm not sure, can't find anything on it.

Also... hell yes, Auto IS a character killer. it kills NPCs and enemies in seconds, I need to make it more deadly to PCs! I feel that if I want to give an NPC an autogun who may use it on the PCs, and I'm not sure if they can take it, I replace it with a lasrifle as a rule of thumb.

What i've learned thus far: Some rules clarifications, and that I need to make auto in combat bad. also, Bodysnatchers and armour-toting mercs are not as bad as I had been led to believe...

Triple posting is Heresy!

Jokes aside, the rule about single shots only in melee did generate some heated debate, and not everyone agrees. I think it makes sense, in melee with a guy trying to chop you to pieces, you are dancing around and trying to stay out of his reach. It's assumed you mange to squeeze of a shot every round, but to keep your pose and pistol in place long enough to fire a burst of 6 shots (autopistol)... You're just begging for that hand to be chopped of.

But this is up to each group to decide, really. It was an "official reply", and I guess if they ever bother updating the errate it will be included, but even so... go with what you're comfortable with. Game balance wise, you WANT melee fighters to be able to "disable" bullet-spewers by engaging them in melee. If you allow your gun bunnies to jump around in melee dual wielding auto-pistols on full auto they become more effective at melee than melee specialists (4 hits max, by RAW). You do not want this, so I recommend going with the ruling as it is.

Darth Smeg said:

What the Devilry is triple posting? Is it something to do with plinths, concrete and post holes, or letters with no return address on?

Ah so it sounds like you've experienced gun bunnies. A good point. My players arn't gonna like me when I throw extra rules at them, but I agree, I'll fully consider it. Everyone makes mistakes I suppose...

So... Grenade range - 4 x (3 x SB)? The 3 x SB is just their range value I assume. For some reason I thought that was their maximum range but that doesn't make sense to me, and I can find no basis for my thoughts on this...

EoD Opponents... so if the gun bunnies are removed from the equation, and I seem to only have gunners, then... Hell I feel sorry for anyone in CC with a bodysnatcher, They've got 6 points of armour against primitive weapons, and a TB of 4! Enforcers are worse, 8 points of armour and 3 TB!

Jeans_Stealer said:

That's when you post the same message 3 times

Back on topic, any melee oriented fighter will make sure to acquire mono upgrades for their melee weapons. It's cheap and relatively easily available (see availability and population size on p126. They're in Hive Sibellus, so this should be a piece of cake).

A mono sword is not primitive, and ignores 2 points of Armour. Reducing thei Body snatchers impressive 10 points of soak to a more manageable 5. An average fighter with SB of 3 will still cause damage to these creatures.

As for grenades, you have it right. SBx3 (typically 9) is the Range value. Short is then half this, normal from half to double, and so on.

Darth Smeg said:

Excellent! so that's cleared up grenades for me, a SB3 character can throw one a maximum of 36 metres. thank you. I think Shattered Hope is to blame.

Ah so you suggest I change EoD to make mono options available? considering how hard it is to find ammunition, a few things would have to change in that case... (mind you they have an OH-SO-DEADLY mono scalpel.) Sibellus sure, but in the southern Corscala division? some fudging required. tbh I think they're just going to get through by shooting everything in the face anyway... these concerns of Mono CCWs are probably for Naught when it's 'shoot this guy' and 'shoot that guy' all the way to the end.

I agree with the mono choice. I've had fighters forget it though (which always confused me) I just assume though that since no-one is really working on WS then no-one is gonna want Mono. They've so far asked me for Manstoppers (I assume to gain the same effect, but with less stabby.)

Sorry about the Heresy, I'll get my local Arbites to put me in the Iron-Maiden-stocks for a day.

Jeans_Stealer said:

Just one? Oh, for each post, of course

I only repeat myself to get questions answered, You have no idea how hard I've found it to simply ask 'what do you think of this campaign?'

I appreciate your answers, they've been most helpful (and any answers that anyone else gives of course.)

**** I wish I could delete those two mistaken posts

Don't worry about it, no harm done. As Heresy goes, this was relatively mild. At least you didn't use ALL CAPS, or say something like "I could care less"

Hope your game goes well, and that your players struggle and curse, and forever remember the body snatchers as horrible monstrosities that maimed and scarred them, almost costing them their lives

Darth Smeg said:

I'm secretly a Heretic anyway. shhhh.

lol struggle and curse... that hopefully includes enjoying the game I'm personally struggling now with Semi and Full auto into combats, because they like doing that... I need a foolproof set of rules with bonuses and consequences that I agree with. Thinking is haaaaard... :S

Well, whatever the they do to the enemy, the enemy can do to them!

In general (and these will not apply to your body snatcher fight), remember:

Cover! Cover is a lifesaver. Let your bad guys stay in cover, which according to examples given in Black Crusade also give a bonus to Dodge.

Supressing Fire and Pinning. Hard (-20) WP tests are going to mean most of your players are hiding like little girls behind cover, reduced to Half Actions. No Auto fire then! Let the bad guys have a Heavy Stubber set up at quite some distance blasting away!

Grapple those pesky gun bunnies. He can't shoot when 3 mad attack dogs are hanging from his arms and legs and wrestling him to the ground.

Use other methods of disabling them: Webbers, flamers, grenades which cause madness, huge electromagnetic cranes (like the ones used in junk yards) that yank all guns and other metallic items (like tech priests) and stick-em to the roof, Nick Nolte, etc etc

All together in tune now...

GM: "Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you."

Players: "No you can't."

GM: "Yes I can."

Players: "No you can't."

GM: "Yes I can."

Players: "No you can't."

GM: "Yes I can, yes I can, YES I CANNNNNN!."

Oh what I meant was Auto into combat, where your allies are involved. I think I've covered a set of rules that my players will agree with (and it will discourage them from opening up into their mates. Hopefully. The extra dice-rolls are not quick, but they're not really slow either.) It also applies quite nicely to close-combat (where the shooter is adjacent/engaged.)

The Extra moves though... knockdown, takedown, grapple, stun, sprint...

GMs: CAN WE FIX IT...? YES WE CAN! fix it up a treat...

And think outside the box, so to speak.

Once a character is Grappled, the enemies can do pretty much anything to him, and they aren't limited to the Attack Actions listed in the book. They could attach a melta bomb to your grappled character (they use magnetic and sticky adhesives, so stick to pretty much anything), and then push him down some stairs while they run away real fast

Or spray him with fermones and then release some nasty beasties that want to hump him. Get creative