For those of you familiar with the Mass Effect universe, how do you think the imperium of Man would fare against a Reaper harvesting? After all, the 50k year mark has gotta be coming up soon! =P (ignore the fact that eldar and other xenos species have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.)

I can't decide, myself. The imperium could amass an unimaginably colossal fleet of starships to fight the Reapers but the Reapers are incredibly maneuverable in space and would probably be difficult to hit with macrocannon shells. And Reapers are tiny compared to WH40k ships. For instance, their destroyers are only 150m long.

Also, has anyone thought of statting up a sovereign-class Reaper?

Sovereign's easy: use the Whisperer from the GM Kit adventure; if you're using the houseruled ship combat rules that thing is TERRIFYING.

Honestly for rules for Sovereign I might wait and see the rules for the void kraken. I'm sure it's going to come with some ship grapple rules with constriction damage. Just throw 1 super powerful lance and a few less powerful lances (firing from the "fingers") on a void kraken, shrink it down a whole bunch and there's your Sovereign!

Oh and before anyone brings up the "AI can't exist because daemon's will possess/corrupt them" argument, don't forget: Reapers aren't AI. They're fully fledged metallic-electrical life forms. Not just advanced AI programming.

To be really honest, both sides can bring some interesting tech to the table. Mass Effect cores for the Reapers and FTL, while the Imperium can bring warp-based weaponry and travel to bear.

I mean, the Reapers can manipulate the laws of physics, but Vortex torpedo's rarely care about that...

In the end, they've already tried it; pre-boning it up Necrons. If all of the Necrons had woken up at the same time, and pulled coordinated attacks all across the Imperium, they wouls have smoked the Humans, as would the Nids, in an organic version of this scenario. I'd say that the Imperium has some advantages, being a bit more cohesive than the whining Alliance gov't, at least on paper, and having so much more territory to cover, on the part of the Reapers. On the other hand, the Reapers would have better tech on their side, and I'm not sure how the AM, the Imperium's tech-overseers, would initially react to the Reapers, lauding them as an aspect of the Omnissiah, and refusing to fight this due punishment on the faltering Imperium, or immediately screaming heresy, and throwing everything they have at it.

In the end, I'd probably have to give it to the Imperium, though. Once the Tech-Priests got over the awe of the alien tech that is the Crucible, the sheer amount of manufacturing power the Imperium could bring to bear would crank it out fast (or in decades, like every other big thing the million-world strong Imperium efforts to build ), ignoring any amount of self-pain or suffering the work caused, and while Shepard is cool, and has a varied pool of allies and friends (some I missed from 2, compared to my 3 options), the Imperium has whole groups of Space Marines to send at various done-by-Shepard objectives. Add to that the lack of Cerberus mucking up the works (I'd expect His Holy Inquisition to take care of that, if the organization had grown to the ME3 Cerberus level), and the lack of remorse that the Imperium would feel at the loss of numerous worlds (just get them back in the next Crusade), and it would just stomp over the Reapers. If the Reapers found Nids, or Orks first, it would be even better; they'd have to spend so much time culling the xenos, while the Imperium would have even more time to do something about them.

Final vote: with a lot of injuries and heavy breathing, I'd give it to the Imperium.

While I can't really comment on the effectiveness of ME weapons/armor as opposed to 40k weapons/armor (Though someone who knows more about physics than me probably could) I can point out that there is a very notable difference in size and scale between the two fictional universes.

The largest non-Reaper ships, with the exception of the Destiny Ascension, top out at 1 kilometer long, with the Destiny Ascension topping the scale at around 4 kilometers, with a crew of 10,000. That's the largest ship in the galaxy, there's only one, and everything else is a quarter of the size and, we can assume, crew and firepower. Additionally, there aren't very many of these 1 kilometer ships. The galactic total, at the time the reapers invade, is only 85.

The reapers, while there are more of them, are similarly sized. Harbinger and Sovereign, the two largest recorded Reapers, are 2 kilometers long. That puts them larger than almost anything in Mass effect, but smaller than quite a lot of ships in 40k.

Not happening to have the rogue trader book in front of me, I can't throw 40k numbers out, but 40k ships are SO MUCH bigger and there are SO MANY more of them. I don't really think the Reapers could win it.

UNLESS

The Reapers had access to Mass Relays and the humans, somehow, didn't. FTL travel is another huge difference between the universes, and how that is reconciled would have a really big impact on the outcome.

I think I have to agree that the Inperium would win.

Another question: Does anyone else see the relationship between Cerberus and the Imperium of Man? Both seek to advance and protect humankind no matter the cost in lives and live by the credo "F*** aliens!"

Cerberus has a proud tradition of dicking around with xenogen technologies and races and then having it blow up in their faces. Not particularly similar to the Imperium.

A 40k version of Cerberus woud be closer to the Logician hereteks or some manner of radical inquisition splinter group. Wanton use of xenotech to advance "humanity" (read: themselves) and little regard for collateral damage.

I'll be the dissenter, i think the reapers would curb stomp the imperium, 40k tech is a joke compared to mass effect tech. Despite the smaller size that huge protogothic archetectured battle prow doesnt' do a lot of good if all the squishy people inside have been killed off by some ladled on gravity.

A single space marine could crap on shepherd's face. WH has a million of them.

WhiteLycan said:

And Krogan breed like bunnies.

Big mean bunnies with shotguns.

In hindsight, I might add that one advantage of ME, over WH, is that in ME, Shepard has one of the great Human powers; the skill to speak to aliens who have outlived them by millennia, and who might be better, or more advanced then them, who are crippled by fear or old grudges involving their galactic neighbors, and uniting them into a great, collective force, able to stomp any one foe, even the Reapers. In 40k, however, Humans don't have that ability; they are scared, hide-bound individuals, on the whole incapable of making friends with anyone who isn't Human, even if those aliens might possess vital tech or insight, while they are also fearful of their own brethren, thinking that those around them have been tainted by foul enemies, with tech that they are superstitious of, and can barely reproduce. If the Nids, Necrons, or Orks fought like Reapers, and hit more specific targets with more heavy force, they'd pwn the Imperium, which is bereft of assistance (everyone hates them), and not in possession of large amounts of their best gear. Only the spread-out nature, or slow arrival (Necrons), keeps the Imperium alive.

So, while I still have some faith in the Imperium; "average" ships are bigger than Sovereign was, and the Imperium is VAST, I think the Reapers would win, because every race is a stand-alone, hate filled nemesis, and no one race is strong enough to defeat the Reapers. The Eldar might retreat into the Webway, while Chaos withdraws to the Warp, but Humans will get boned, Tau along with them, and Orks and Nids will need a while to regen their pops. Space Marines are mighty, but again, they are too much a stand-alone force, and they'd get beaten. If Chaos can corrupt them, indoctrination is possible, too.

WhiteLycan said:

I'm honestly not sure where you come up with this equation considering Shepherd is actually a space marine right down to the augs. He's not 8 feet tall but in most other respects he fits the bill.

Shepherd
6' Tall
Average/slightly above average intelligence
Average/slightly above average physical characteristics
Special weapons available to anyone with enough money to buy them, none of which are very impressive
Special armor available to anyone with enough money to buy it, none of which are very impressive
Only one of him

Space Marine
8'+ tall
Average/slightly above average intelligence
Excessively high physical characteristics
Special weapons available ONLY to space marines because they're so powerful
Special armor available ONLY to space marines because they're so powerful (Terminator armor, anyone?)
Most can spit acid out of their mouth
Around a million of them

Boltgun > Vindicator Assault Rifle (I think that's the name)
Power Armor > The off-the-shelf crap shepherd wears
Space Marine augments > Shepherd's augments

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but in my mind, space marines > almost anything ME can throw at them. Except I can kinda see Kai Leng being on par with Callidus assassins.

imho

Also, from what I've gathered after beating all 3 of the ME games, I'm pretty sure that the WH40K universe has a LOT more humans in it than the ME universe has sentient beings (of space faring races). So numbers-wise, WH beats out ME.

And I'd LOVE to see the Reapers try and attack Holy Terra.

As soon as you show me where spitting acid actually matters at the tactical or strategic level i'll concede that point, Until then it's a highly touted but pretty worthless super power. As to raw size difference size really isn't that much of a benefit in a gun fight (i say this as a 6'3 300 pound, reasonably in shape for a gamer guy by the way).

The bolt gun is honestly a worthless weapon, why it a worthless weapon?: Because melee weapons are a viable alternative to it.

Further i think your giving the space marines a bit much credit with average/above average intelligence, remember this is a universe where literacy is not a trained skill even for members of the aristocracy.

Point of fact, as much as I find 40k an interesting setting, I think it would get mulched by Star Fleet, let alone the folks from Mass Effect. Their technology is a joke (age of sail in space remember) their warfighting tech and doctrine barely up to WW 1 standards.

Basically all your points about specialized armor and gear being available only to space marines arn't nearly the positive you think they are , what it means is in the mass effect universe power armor would be commonly available (and is) whereas in WH40k the tech level has regressed so far they can only produce it for their "most elites" and even then it's a technology that's rapidly going.

The one area 40k does have is numbers, there are absolutely stupid numbers of space marines, but it takes years and years to produce a space marine, every chapter the opposition wipes out is a serious blow the Imperium.There's also just the tech level in fields like communication. It takes the imperium years, if not generations to realize their facing a new threat like the Tyranids, the nids don't exploit that because it's not in their doctrine, the reapers with FTL coms as a standard action would abuse that advantage to the utmost. Space marine response forces would simply find the opposition already moved on, the imperial navy would spend a lot of it's time chasing reaver ships as they anihalated agroworlds and other lightly defended areas the imperium needs to feed itself.

I'll be generous and say that if the imperium lucked into finding some massing point early to throw a crusade at they'd ahve a chance,anything after that i'd give the reavers about an 80% faster. The imperium has more men and materials but the Reavers (or anyone else) can actually adapat to the imperium's fighting style and tech where as the imperium never adapts, that's kind of it's thing.

Spitting acid was obviously meant as a joke...

How are guns that shoot shells (that I've always imagined as the size of 50 cal shells) that explode once inside their target are completely worthless?..

Your argument to why they're worthless is pretty pathetic, sorry. "The gun sucks because you can use a sword instead"... not much of an argument there.

Since when has literacy factored into intelligence? I mean sure Shepherd would have the advantage in a spelling B if that's all the opposition the Reapers put up, but strategically Space Marines have hundreds, some of them thousands, of years of combat experience. 100+ Years of combat experience > High School Education

I never got the impression that ME armor was Power Armor. There's nothing Power to it. It doesn't assist in any (noticeable) way.

It takes years and years to produce a space marine. Shepherd can't be replaced. Unless you regrow him. Again. Which Cerberus isn't likely to do a second time. At least twice in ME3 Shepherd practically solos a Reaper. Imagine what a million space marines could manage.

My point on their special weapon/armor is that it's special because it's so powerful, not because it's limited. A normal human can barely hold up a Space Marine bolter because of its massive size and the power behind it.

ME3 spoilers below

There are tens/hundreds of thousands of ships in the imperial fleets. To think that a squadron of them wouldn't be near any given planet is just trying to make the argument lopsided by introducing moot points. Look at ME Earth. ME3 takes place over the course of several weeks. During that time, Earth is still putting up a good fight and could probably last several more weeks before the Reapers finally won. Now imagine what a Forge/Fortress/Hive World is. ME Earth probably has around 7 billion or so people. Forge/Fortress/Hive Worlds have around the same and are significantly more defended than ME Earth. But in WH40K there's a few hundred (or more?) of them. It'd take decades if not centuries for the Reapers to harvest all that. In that time, whole fleets could be organized and set against the Reapers.

And sure Repers have FTL. Kinda. BUT very importantly: They still rely on Mass Relays. Mass relay = Choke point. Ever seen 300? It'd be like that. The Reapers warp through to the Mass Relay nearest Sol and boom, a few hundred imperial warships are waiting for them. And even if they got through all that, there's still Holy Terra to contend with, the most well-defended planet in the galaxy. And remember, the Reapers would have to contend with the Necrons, Tyranids, Tau and everyone else, too. They don't just kill humans. They kill everything that is sentient. Especially synthetics.

The Imperium also has a lot of experience dealing with mind controlling xenos and psykers. Enslaver plagues, genestealer cults, eldar witchery and chaos sorcerors can all manipulate and outright control huge numbers of people....and they've still failed to destroy the Imperium. And as tough as space marines are, they're not even the highest end elite forces available. A primaris psyker or temple assassin could kill squads of space marines by themselves and that's not counting the unique individuals with even greater abilities.

WhiteLycan said:

Somewhat understated, don't you think?

Shepard, regardless of specific details, is a Systems Alliance Marine (and thus genetically modified - this is admittedly a set of minor enhancements, but gene modification is standard for all Alliance Marines), who has been placed in, and succeeded in completing, the Alliance ICT (Interplanetary Combatives Training) Special Forces program (a series of intensive courses and field exercises including zero-G combat, military free-fall (parachuting), jetpack flight, combat diving, combat instruction, linguistics, and frontline trauma care for human and alien biology) to be awarded N7 status (the highest level of Special Forces classification within the Alliance Military). Beyond that, Shepard is the first human to be made an operative of the Citadel's Special Tactics and Reconnaissance group (commonly known as Spectres), a point which marks him or her out as being something special beyond being merely an extraordinary leader and combatant.

After his or her reconstruction by Cerberus at the start of Mass Effect 2, Shepard is physically augmented in a variety of ways, being far more durable and physically capable than a normal human (able to operate weapons that normal humans cannot effectively wield due to recoil, such as the pre-refit versions of the M-300 Claymore shotgun or the M-98 Widow Anti-Materiel Rifle, which are designed to be used by Krogan and Geth, respectively)

Several of the items of armour and weaponry available to Shepard throughout the games are only available to personnel in particular services, and many of them represent the state of the art in personal military equipment. In addition, the standard level of military technology in the Mass Effect galaxy is significantly higher than the baseline level of Imperial technology.

And that's beyond the possibility that Shepard is a biotic, and thus capable of manipulating the laws of physics with his or her brain.

WhiteLycan said:

Overstated in some cases - the average Astartes is only around 6'8", 7' in armour. Yes, their physical prowess is superhuman, and their equipment is specialised to suit their personal needs... but there's no guarantee that this equipment surpasses that available to that in the Mass Effect setting, or that their physical prowess actually matters (Space Marines fight best up-close, where their strength and resilience can be used to overwhelm the enemy; at long range against concentrated heavy weapons fire, they are noticeably less effective because their strength means nothing and their resilience is countered by high-powered weapons)

WhiteLycan said:

The weapons differ considerably in scope. The average Astartes Bolter fires heavy-calibre rocket-propelled mass-reactive shells. The average Assault Rifle in Mass Effect propels custom-machined metal slivers propelled at hypersonic velocities. The standard magazine for the bolter is 28 shells. The standard magazine for an M8 Avenger assault rifle is several thousand rounds, depending on conditions, machined from a solid metallic block within the weapon itself - the primary limiting factor in battle is not ammunition, but heat production. The targeting capabilities of a bolter are unknown. The targeting systems of Mass Effect weapons are established - employing sophisticated targeting computers, distance and ambient firing conditions are analysed in the fraction of a second between the trigger pull and the shot being fired, with the computer determining necessary muzzle velocity and projectile configuration before machining the individual bullet and accelerating it towards the target. In essence, the gun accounts for the majority of ambient conditions such as wind speed and direction, atmospheric density and so forth in order to make them irrelevant.

This is before we consider the availability of specialised ammunition - in 40k, this needs to be manufactured and is rare and only given to the most elite of the elite; in Mass Effect, it's a field modification that can be done by anyone with the right training and tools, which are plentiful, and can be adjusted at a moment's notice.

Armour is a different matter also. The Imperium employs brute force rigid armoured protection first and foremost, using multi-layer composites on things like Power Armour (which, admittedly, has numerous supplemental systems, but is hardly standard). Armour in Mass Effect consists of several layers of defence, beginning with layers of ballistic cloth and similar flexible armours, supplemented by ceramic armour plating, on-board medical systems that monitor wearer health and administer first-aid automatically on the critically-injured, with the final external layer being an automatically-regenerating kinetic barrier sufficient to stop most projectiles (it's established in-game and within the setting background that single shots from personal firearms are rarely sufficient to breach the kinetic barriers of the average soldier; rapid fire weapons designed to overwhelm barriers with a succession of impacts before they can recharge are more effective).

A shell that detonates inside a target is irrelevant if the shell is deflected before it even strikes the target's armour, which means that every bolter shell fired that doesn't pierce a kinetic barrier is a shell wasted.

As for the augments... too different to directly compare, as Shepard's implants were responsible for his or her resurrection first and foremost, rather than being a deliberate attempt to augment combat ability.

And the thing is... while every Space Marine may have the advantages listed... every soldier in the Mass Effect universe employs this high baseline of technology. Every Asari Commando, every Turian Legionnaire, every Alliance Marine, every Krogan Warrior. Astartes are strong, tough, skilled and well-equipped, but they're not invincible and they're not the best possible thing out there in any universe. Similar can be said of the soldiers of the Mass Effect setting.

Indeed, looking at the details as a big fan of both settings... neither are well-suited to taking on the other. Standard assault rifles will struggle to penetrate the sheer mass of Astartes power armour, forcing a change in strategy and armament (to higher-powered weapons, which will consequently have a lower RoF due to heat generation and recoil issues), while Astartes armament and brute-force approaches (even their precision strikes are brute force, in essence) struggles against kinetic barriers and render bolterfire comparatively inefficient.

Also remember that while Shepard does face down a couple of Reapers, the only one taken down by personal weaponry is incomplete and incapable of properly fighting back. The ones he or she defeats in ME3 are slain by precision guided strikes from starship or vehicle weaponry (something not possible with the relatively inaccurate nature of 40k starship weaponry)... and even those are the smaller 160km Destroyers, currently at their most vulnerable by operating on a planet (details established in the in-game Codex - a Reaper's shields are necessarily weaker on a planet, as a lot of the output of their Element Zero cores has to go towards making the machine light enough to actually move around under gravity), as opposed to the much more powerful Sovereign-class Dreadnoughts.

A few thing to remember about the ME verse:

Faster, smaller, more maneuverable starships.

Every set of armor in ME has a force field, strength enhancers, targeting enhancers, and is customizable to best enhance the individual using it.

Stable, powerful Psykers (Biotics). Maybe not as powerful as some Primaris can get, but close and very stable.

Krogan would probably be the equal of a space marine, physically.

Science and Tech in ME is adaptable, progressive, and evolving.

While not common, real time, galaxy wide communication is possible in ME. Astropaths require time and realy stations.

Let's have an exercise in porting ME tech into 40krpg terms.

Kinetic barriers are the important part here. My understanding is that there are two parts to the kinetic barrier system. First is functionally a 100% strength powerfield that overloads after taking x damage in a round, rather that a percentage of the time. Let's say that every mainline trooper can soak 25 damage+pen before suffering overload- this means that every grunt can soak several lasbolts, a krak missile or lascannon, and shrug it off to no detriment. The damage+pen part of this equation is important- it means that high pen weapons, due to the blunting nature of the kinetic field, have a disproportionate effect on the field. The truly useful bit is that after overload the shield will restore itself at the end of the second round that no fire was sustained.

The second component to the field is simply a y-value armour shield covering all locations. I would argue that penetration would not apply to this shield. I imagine that it would be a low-ish value- let's say two. This value is doubled against environmental damage, allowing their troopers to wade through fire more easily than IG troopers, but not granting immunity.

Sheperd, and other elite troops, would have a better kinetic barrier, of course.

Because of the nature of kinetic barriers, penetration has a greater effect in combat. To that end, the standard mass-accelerator assault rifle used in ME would be very similar to the autoguns in WH40k... except with a much higher penetration value. I'm thinking pen 7, doubled against fields. This means that a short burst from a ME rifle will drop a standard kinetic barrier about as quickly as a short burst from a boltgun. It also means that WH40k armour will be functionally ignored until you get to terminator grade armour.

In a straight-up fight, ME troops have higher-quality armour and barriers for all, with the addition of weapons with high pen. IG, unsurprisingly, have the advantage they always have: numbers and brute force- kinetic barriers mean. I think this applies to armour as well as infantry.

Going back to the original topic- I think the appearance of the reapers would upset the balance in 40k... probably to the benefit of Humanity. It is a truism that an introduction of chaos favours the underdog, and against the scourges of the Necrons, the Nids and so on, Humanity is very much the underdog. The Reapers would, I think, necessarily target the tyrannid swarms, as they have the highest threat priority as well as the greatest concentration of biomass to harvest. The big question in my mind is how the Necrons and Reapers would interact- whether they would have a traitor-geth/reaper interaction or whether they would simply ignore one another as non-issues, or whether the Necrons would consider them life, and move to annihilate.

The kinetic fields would only protect against stubbers, bolts and other solid projectiles. The ME universe completely lacks energy weapons which is probably the point where it and 40K are most incompatible. So las and plasma weapons would just ignore the "shields" of an ME guy. On the other hand ME ubiquitously applies anti-grav tech to literally everything down to the most mundane **** whereas in 40k anti-grav is one of the most misunderstood artifacts of the dark age of technology frequently produced in small quantities for limited applications but totally mythical in it's function.

With 40k vs ME you're talking about rules that are so divergent they don't allow for each other, it's like the old Star Wars vs Star Trek arguments but even dumber.

You must be a mathematician, Larry. Bunch o' excessively literal 'black-on-one-side' numbercrunchers. I, however, am an engineer. First rule of Engineering? Kiss Principle. Second rule of Engineering? If it's within tolerances, it's close enough. Third rule? If it didn't work, use twice as much duct tape (the combat engineering version of this substitutes demo for duct tape).

Incendiary rounds, warp rounds, cryo rounds... these sound like energy weapons to me, or at least within tolerances. Also, Collector Particle Beam? Arc Projector? Hell, flight through charged particle fields? If the Normandy's kinetic barriers couldn't shrug off charged particles, it would have fried the first time you ever tried to visit the Citadel... which would have made for a short game.

The low damage-per-round, high penetration model of ME weapons seems like an adequate representation of the low-caliber high velocity rounds used, and therefore within tolerances. I don't need to be particularly precise, because I'm not marketing this game (and would laugh at anyone trying to do so). As long as game balance is (more or less) preserved, and the kinetic barriers and anti-KB weapons balance each other adequately, and as long as they don't blatantly outstrip extant setting weaponry without blatantly breaking either set of fluff... then it's within tolerances.

Kiss principle? If my hack of the game doesn't fit, don't use it. There's no need to denigrate it. Stop raining on my parade, bro.

Space Marines are essentially shock troopers (look up the actual definition) Shepard is not, his battle field role is more that of a commando or "standard" special forces operator. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to monkeywrenches. Frankly Krogan are closer to a 1:1 analogue to Space Marines as far as their battlefield role goes.