hmmm what about this

Before set up you may choose a Baratheon King character from your deck. Take that card and all of its duplicates and attach them to your house. Your house gains the printed text box (except for keywords and traits) of that card. You may not play, put into play, or take control of any other Baratheon King Characters.

Staton said:

Oooh, that sounds mighty interesting. Especially if you chose Renly so you could kneel your House Card to reduce costs by 1 or even Stannis so Night's Watch automatically gain +1 STR.

It'd be odd though since some Baratheon Kings deal only with themselves, specifically Melee Bob and Shadows Bob. And it might get awkward trying to decipher how Additional Power Challenge Bob would work... if the House Card is the only Bara King in play you get an extra Challenge? Or if its the only King, period, does it get an extra Challenge?

But I do like that idea a lot.

Yeah it'd be weird. It would need different wording for sure, but I'm glad you like the core idea!

Archrono said:

Glass Cannon the way I have always heard it used refers to the idea that you get one shot and the cannon explodes. You either destroy your target or die yourself.

Rush is like that. You throw everything on the table as fast as possible to grab the maximum amount of power as possible before your opponent can. This generally means an unsustainable amount of over-extension. If you can't win before your opponent can hit his reset (soft, hard, or partial) or get his control online you end up losing a lot of your board presence and run the risk of ever being able to recover after.

The Bara deck I've been toying with rather than aiming for a T2 win aims for T3-T4 with three turns where the characters are pretty **** well protected as are the challenges I'm pushing through.

Penfold said:

I see what you mean, definitely how most people run Baratheon, and has probably the best tools for rushing right now out of the houses. (I don't think stark, lanni, targ, or martell could even try to build a rush deck, but I could be wrong. Greyjoy maybe, but I doubt it.)

I'd be interested to see exactly how you build this T3-4 win deck. I've been trying to take advantage of all the saves and recursion I can with the Baratheon Lords and Ser Parmen Crane, as well as joust and the Stromlands Tourney Grounds, and of course See Who is Stronger. (The Asshai Initiate too, just in case.)

My biggest problem is keeping things at 60-65 cards, and the fact that I don't have a core set, so no Muster or Summoning Season to make sure I get Ser Parmen. (I don't like using stuff I don't have in real life for octgn.)

I think that you may be focused too much on saves and recursion in your draw deck. I use some but only a few. What I've found is I need to get a solid flop with claim soak and a power unique (most frequently a noble, but definitely something with renown) and some reduction. I want to open up with something like Art of Seduction or maybe First Snow if I end up with some zero cost drops and a more expensive character if it will hit him harder than me. My second and third plots are probably going to be Power of Blood. If I opened with Art then the second plot is going to be something like Taken by Surprise so I can go first and spam the board, then turns 3 and 4 are Power of Blood.

This is supplemented by the cancels I have that are reactive, proactive, and of course Brienne who is really just denial.

As to the power grabbers, not hard to figure out, nothing surprising or particularly different than everyone else I assume.

Penfold said:

Very interesting concept. I use Loyalty Money can Buy and Lineage and Legacy to delay things while I get set up.
I never thought of using first snow. I think most of the time it would hurt me more, but maybe not. Most Baratheon characters are cost 3 or 4...

I like using Power of Blood for a couple turns. Would be very powerful with only a few Nobles. I like the idea of just needing a few characters that are extremely difficult to deal with or remove.

You've given me some things to think about.

I've been using First Snow too, but never as my starting plot... sure, it'll clear some of my opponent's characters, but it bounces anyone who I may have put out for claim soak, leaving all my good Renown guys vulnerable. Works better for me once I have some dupes down; might work better if I was using Royal Entourage or something, but I often use it somewhere around Round 3 (if the game even goes 3 Rounds, and most of the time it doesnt).

It isn't my normal opener, but If I got a number of locations and zero-cost drops that were characters then I get to drop them all back out again for free. The one or two cost characters that I have in my deck are for claim soak and to dig deeper into my deck. If I can get a refugee or two on the drop and my opponent played two two cost characters I may hit them. It is really in there for that game where my opponent floods the board after a reset that I ideally mostly ignore.

My meta doesn't play with a lot of resets, so first snow sort of appeals to me (As I'd keep my nice expensive stuff and remove all or most of their claim soak.)

Combined with location control (Salla) which I'm liking more and more, its pretty cool.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I was wondering what you guys thought, what is the deal with Stannis?
Aside from the core one (Which now with everyone having a lot of Lords, isn't super useful), his cards are pretty lack-luster. I've started experimenting with the Kings of the Storm one to cut off an opponent's draw and choke them out with Asshai and the Altar of Fire, but still, I'd prefer to mess with my wall build and the Night's Watch one. (Especially with the First Ranger attachment!)

I like him as a character, and think he could get some better versions.
I've also looked at the old ccg ones but non of them really jump out at me. One has built in Accepted Destiny, and one is sort of like Victarion Greyjoy .

I guess I just wish I had 3 copies of the Defenders of the North one, and had a balanced wall deck that used him properly.

The next step perhaps is submitting a deck list, either here or in the deckbuilding section, but I still need to cut it and tweak it a but before we get there.

I'm also experimenting with a holy heavy deck, focusing on giving renown characters fanatic (Ser Eldon, Melisandre, with whichever other renowns I have) instead of ones that already have holy, then pushing Power of Faith for a couple turns.

I know its a bit silly to try to make an uber-deck that covers all bases, but I'm just trying to balance things so its interesting and sort of (if not actually) competitive.

So, Salla for location control, renown/Baratheon uniques + Stormlands Bastard for renown, Fanatic+Power of Faith, Winter and the Wall for Night's Watch, And Holy for Altar of Fire hand control.

So it would be I guess half or more Asshai. Maybe (If I was going for Winter/Wall) running Seal of the Crown for draw. (And The Laughing Storm for synergy).

I figure I'd prob go renown over the lord synergy Rainbow Guard, as SL bast only works for one challenge, and the idea is to get three renown one each char with Fanatic during the Power of Faith.

So far I've been making it fairly "Nedly" starting out, but in the end it's not that important.

Because there's a fair number of asshai, I've been trying to include Shadow enchantress and some shadow cards, but you can start to see my problem.
It is sort of a rush deck with hand burn and pretty heavy intrigue.

Plots right now are:
1 or 2 Power of Faith
Loyalty Money Can Buy (Pretty much auto include for me.)
Feast or Famine (Ditto)
Lineage and Legacy (Wow, this one I've run forever.)*

Either Spending the Winter Stores or A Time for Ravens for winter.*

Many Powers Long asleep to get back a holy. *

The * ones I might switch for, Search and Detain, The Grand Melee (I almost always run this one too.), and The First Snow of Winter (maybe). (Might only run one Power of Faith instead of two.)

Looking at it now its also pretty attachment heavy. (11 Including 3 Fanatic, a Ruby of R'hllor, a White Raven or Crown of Azor, First Ranger, Accepted Destiny, Tourney Lance, Champions Favor, and Condemned)

I also have a good amount of kneel and stand effects (Highgarden, Marya Seaworth, and Obey The King.)

Andd as I'm tapering off and should have called it a night half an hour ago, Any thoughts? (On both Stannis and my noob deckbuilding ideas.)

Its sort of also an experiment (building on octgn) to see if I want to pick up the last two packs from the cycle. (For First Ranger, Condemned, Dragonstone Convert, etc.)

Let me know if you have any ideas to balance it out, make it a more coherent smooth deck, or if my rambling sparked any interesting ideas of your own. Like if you see where I might make room for a card I haven't even thought of, or a completely new direction.

PPS
Anyone find a decent use for Fiery Kiss? I keep seeing people say it was one of the redeemable cards of the cycle, but I'm not sure. (I ask because it would work well with the Shadow Enchantress.)

Stannis is too my favourite GoT character, followed by Davos Seaworth.

Can anyone suggest which is the best card for each of these?

I'm unsure which theme I want to go for at the moment. I love the idea of Stannis at the wall, having Night's Watch with him, but I also like the amount of knights Baratheon can have. Maybe I should focus more on Asshai?

Ahh the choices!

Pope1777 said:

Best is a tricky thing to nail down. Especially with all the deck types you could run. Night's Watch Stannis and Core Stannis are good because no other cards interfere with their ability (So you could run other Baratheon kings and still get the bonus.) Davos is tricky too. I like the one that saves attachments (mainly because of the way I play and the fact that he's a lord, while the most recent one is a smuggler.) but all of them are not bad. (Especially if you want a lot of knights.)

The wall Stannis would work better with a deck that has more then a few Night's Watch, (so you don't need the wall and winter the get his bonus working) but as a Lord and King, he works with the Rainbow Guard knights and/or Ser Gerold Hightower+Kingsgaurd.

If you go Asshai (which is where I'm leaning right now,) keep in mind that unless you have shadow enchantress and some stuff in shadows, you'll be pretty vulnerable to military challenges till you're set up. So run either extra draw (new agenda attachment, Ruby of R'hllor) or try going half knight with some asshai sprinkled in. Keep in mind though, that with Lions of the Rock, some Lannister players will out knight you and choke your draw, then it's pretty much game over.

I'm still not a huge fan of Kings of the Storm Stannis. Even with a deck that has other Baratheon kings, I'll draw him first and choke my own draw. (Of course, I prefer draw-heavy decks.)

If you built a deck based on his ability to choke an opponents draw, combined say with Kings of Winter agenda you might have something there. (It would force afair amount of pressure on some houses, as Targ, Lannister, or any house running the Knights of the Realm agenda would be forced to only draw 2 cards a round.)

I'd say the Core Set versions of Stannis and Davos are still the best versions of each. Davos is nice as both a Lord and a Knight, works well in Knight decks, and it's nice to have some claim soak, though his need for one gold is a bit clunky and it can get pricey to have to repay for him if you end up bouncing him. The attachment saving Davos from the KL is nice in theory, but Baratheon really isn't much for attachments; the best use I've seen for that Davos is actually playing him out of Targ, using him to get a second use out of Flame Kissed after it kills someone. The newest Davos, from Where Loyalty Lies, eh. He's not a bad card per se, but he's certainly nothing special. If that card was a different character, I might use him, but as it is I see little point.

I've never found much luck using Kings of the Storm Stannis, he just seems like too big a liability. Core Set is nice and consistent. He's not going to screw up any other King you might play, and his ability is phenomenal when it works. NW Stannis is decent, but definitely wholly dependent on being in a NW deck. CS Stannis goes in most of my Bara decks.

Given the role Stannis played in the latest books, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a new version of him in the next cycle. I'd also like a new Renly, though that would be a bit harder to justify from a Nedly perspective.

alpha5099 said:

ktom said:

True, but it seems like the next cycle is focusing specifically around being thematically tied to stuff in A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons in general, and Essos in particular. Assuming they stick to such a focus (and they may very well not), Renly seems like a less likely card to see than Stannis.

So far I only have Core Stannis, and will have Kings of Storm Stannis soon. He can be a duplicate for Core Stannis from the negative comments about him.

As a long time Baratheon player, I have to argue that king Stannis is actually a solid card. For his cost, the ability to turn so much of an opponent’s draw deck into a liability is a major plus. You just have to suck it up and accept that you are only getting two cards a turn yourself, which can be tough for a lot of players. But once you make that adjustment and commit to the slower pace, he is a nice complement to a delayed rush deck that wants to hit on Four or Five.

Core set Stannis is slightly more efficient, but a bit less so now that Stark and Greyjoy have a lot of playable Lords. I like the king trait and I like the draw choke – so king Stannis is my favorite at the moment.

I agree that we could use a better version though – there have been much more impressive versions of Stannis over the history of the game.

I have actually been experimenting with that Stannis lately. I do think there are a lot of unexplored ideas with him. I'm still not sure if his ability is worth missing out on either of the other Kings though. I've been using King Renly to VERY good effect. Especially if you can get him out early. His reduction stacks up pretty quickly to an extra character. Still, shutting off someone's draw engine is pretty huge. This is especially true since Baratheon is encouraged to run a certain level of redundancy to get Duplicates and whatnot. I think Baratheon still needs some more reliable recursion before they can really make use of this Stannis though.

Yeah, I'd have to chime in with KotS Stannis really not being a bad card by itself. Quite on the contrary really, I think it's a character that could really be a nice centerpiece for Baratheon to build around, if all of the Bara recursion just wasn't a big bowl of brown. Well, apart from See Who Is Stronger maybe.

EDIT: Oh, and Fiery Kiss of course. Maybe with Blackwater Bay to recycle that? Hmm...

Several more cards like See Who Is Stronger and Fiery Kiss and Bara recursion should be up and running hopefully.
Mayhap there might even be some *gasp* self-milling effects to go with the discard search/recursion in the future. Or a twofer that let's you simulate a weaker draw effect by milling or "raiding" your own deck then bring it to your hand if it's of a certain card type.
Unlike the GJs, the Bara raiders only spring raids on their own bros.

I agree with where you guys are going with this. Man - the Good God's Own kiss would be a sweet Plot to have back in the envrionment. and that stast kind fo sucked on that Plot - you had to think about including it.

Recursion really should be more Baratheon's thing than Targs anyway ( see the novels ). And if you could recycle while your opponent couldn't draw - 'twould be interesting.

I still prefer card draw Renly to cost reduction Renly, Josh. five gold for cheaper guys as opposed to three gold for a probably +1 card a turn - just works better for me.

Not a guaranteed plus 1 a turn. Unless you are loading your deck down with that crappy location.

Also are you ******' serious about Good God's Own Kiss?! You didn't think about that plot at all! It was in every Baratheon deck or you couldn't read.

For recursion I've been having a bit of fun with Storm's End Tourney Grounds . You have to load knights and the Highgarden Squire (and or You Swore an Oath), and Tourney Lance, but I find its not hard to make it work.

See Who is Stronger is still the best though. I thought about making it work with the Maester's Tower (two for the price of one goodness), but there aren't a lot of learned characters for Baratheon (and neutral maesters and the faceless men just sort of throw things off). And its a few pieces to set up. (Influence, the tower, a learned character, stuff in the dead or discard pile, and the event.)

I can only get See Who is Stronger to really go off once in a while normally anyways, and with enough claim soak and The Laughing Storm, some games there isn't a lot in the dead and discard piles.

I do love recursion though. Something that brings back lords and or kings and ladies would be sweet. (Stupid Red Wedding always killing my good stuff.)

Good gods own kiss was crazy good. Every Bara deck that I saw back then ran it. Can you even imagine it now with refugees!

I was partially just speaking from my own experience, I've never built a deck where I felt I wanted no-draw Stannis, but I could certainly see the appeal. That was really my point, that other than the one from the Core Set, the Stannises we currently have are fairly situational. You're not going to run no-draw Stannis unless you're planning for that, and King in the North Stannis isn't going to find his way into a non-Night's Watch deck. Compare that with Renly and Robert, where we have at least two versions of each that slip fairly easily into most Bara decks, Raven Renly and King Renly, and Fat Bob and Shadows Bob (and I'm sure a strong argument could be made for some of the other Roberts we have).

I'm not going to upset if I keep running CS-Stannis mainly, because I think he's a pretty awesome card, but given that Stannis is one of my favorite characters (and the one true and rightful king ), I'd love for him to see some love in the Essos cycle.

Also, more Queen's Men! Develop House Florent; more Holy-crested Knights. Something, anything, FFG.