jack merridew said:

Can we discuss it in person WHEN YOU SHOW UP TO GAME NIGHT AGAIN?

Short answer - No: too expensive.

Its not too expensive. Its cancel, and repeatable cancel at that. If they use something to soak up the cancel, guess what? YOU STILL CANCELED SOMETHING! How is that a bad thing?

Painted Table is pretty decent, not spectacular, but very versatile. Hellishly difficult to play efficiently though. It's one of those cards that makes me feel that Baratheon is the new Targaryen.

(At lest in the way that any viable Baratheon deck right now is going to be as difficult to build & play as Targaryen decks used to be before they started getting these ridiculously efficient cards lately.)

Staton said:

Two gold in an environemtn with Choke and you won't cancel; the really good effect....

Yes: if it was a Response (like it should have been) it would be a staple. As it is...give me 3x Paper Shield and 2 x Hand's Judgement and I'll take my chances.

WTF are you talking about?! Baratheon is THE BEST counter to choke! Two gold?! Who gives a **** if I'm playing all my characters for free?! And how about I don't want it to be a response because then Martell cancels it with He Calls It Thinking? Throw The King's Ground on there. Besides, does it matter if I don't cancel the absolute best target? YOU ARE STILL CANCELING EFFECTS!!!

Stag Lord said:

It would be 3 or 4 gold as well and might still have restrictions. The Lanni Throne by comparison can only stop character abilities. Bara still has a number of decent characters with purely passive abilities. You can still hit people freely with them whilst this card goes on overwatch.

There are very few locations that provide cancel. The Painted Table is the only one that can cancel any trigger.

Very few things can screw Outwit to force a Valar. And simultaneously work as choke against reducers. And still help screw up saves during high claim challenges. And yeah, with King's ground...

All is true but.....couldn't they have given bara a solid and make it only opponent effects ????? PLEASE DEVS PLEASE ERRATA IT FOR OPP EFFECTS....what bara needs is ways to get their effects through.

Staton said:

This is the dumbest thing I've read on the boards since someone demanding Dothraki Sea get banned.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on why it is dumb.

Um... look at the FAQ. Do I need to make really make an argument that your statement can't possibly be anything more than fanboy hyperbole?

Do I need to point out the time stamp on my post? And that it was before the FAQ was released? Or can I just call you an ass?

No, but you can call yourself unwilling to admit being wrong.

When you posted the statement doesn't matter. You made definitive statements about Nate and Damon and FFG in regards to Baratheon and rush. These are all clearly wrong, unless you believe they wrote up the FAQ, article, and then posted it purely based on your post. A House may end up getting the short shrift for a while but if you or anyone else thinks they go out of their way to push a House to the bottom and completely sabotage an entire deck type seems the rantings of a fanboy, just delusional, or can't build/play a deck or evaluate cards. Feel free to pick the one you think is most appropriate. I picked what I thought was the most flattering one.

haha I can admit that I was wrong. My assumptions were somewhat wrong. However, I still think that FFG has show a clear design decision to curb the speed of rush. I'm really interested to see what cards Baratheon gets in the next cycle. I doubt we'll get much rush.

I also think that you are not understanding exactly what I meant in my post. I don't think FFG is punishing the house, I think they are trying to turn it into something else. I still don't think they like rush and that we'll see support for other themes in Baratheon. There are clear examples in this cycle that show support for those themes with the new Davos and the holy crest non-asshai characters.

I'm more than willing to have a discussion on this, I think your delivery is a bit off though. For instance, you probably shouldn't quote something and then just say "You're dumb!" If I wanted to read the League of Legends forums, I would go there. I don't come to these forums expecting to be trolled, but if that's what you'd like, be warned ser, I troll very well.

Penfold said:

Penfold said:

It's always been clear that Staton was a Bara fan, just as it's clear from most of your posts that you're excessively blunt (or a first-class jerk, or a troll - just picking the most flattering one).

Staton merely represents a large contingent of Baratheon players who have long felt that an entire deck archetype that is thematic of their house has been getting short shrift. It's not hard to imagine that Nate and Damon weighed decisions about TLS on this long-present sentiment, in addition to the overall cardpool.

This is the first time I have seen a poster act like a **** in these forums. It actually bums be out. I thought this was one place where the users were all pretty intelligent and courteous when talking with each other. You can get frustrated and/or disagree with people, but personal attacks are totally inappropriate. We are talking about a card game when you boil it all down.

Oh goody, the LCG crowd is starting their very own flamewar! *sniff sniff* My little ones are all grown up.....

*kicks back with some popcorn*

Now which one is going to be the first to bring Hitler into the mix?

Thanks for the support guys! I guess hattas gonna hate.

~I didn't think Hata worked for FFG any more?

Bazinga!

~I think I enjoy the insults much more than the terrible jokes, Will.

Staton said:

Will tells jokes?

No, Professor. No he doesn't.

Wow! Leave the thread for a few days and it just blows up!

I'm no tourney player, so I won't make any assertions on that front, but when I started out playing Baratheon I ruled our little group. I still win more then I lose.

MY thoughts on the subject of Baratheon design and deck style are as follows:

1: Baratheon benefits from running large draw decks (And sometimes, a few extras cards over 60.)

2: Baratheon have a fair* amount of power grabbing cards, abilities,etc. and benefit from winning crown challenges perhaps more then other houses. (Or their cards reinforce their ability to with crown challenges.) *Fair meaning there are a lot, but not so many that there is no competition from other houses.

3:SAVES.

Baratheon benefits from more character saves and general card recursion then other houses. (See Who is Stronger, Fiery Kiss, Bound by the Light, Maester Lomys, Ser Parmen Crane and Baratheon Lords, and the most Kings of any house.)
This mechanic is by far my favorite, and combined with character searches from Summoning Season or Herald of the Stag, make for very resilient set ups.

4:Through Asshai, there are kneel effects, hand control, tri-con characters, and vigilant. A well built Asshai deck is not an easy opponent.

5:Shadows, Maester, and Kingsguard.
These three themes may not be strongest with Baratheon, but there is potential for use with Baratheon.

Stealth and Deadly.Although not nearly as well equipped as other houses, there are a few good cards equipped or granted these Keywords from other cards (Baratheon Lords with the rainbow guard.)

And a bunch of other themes and abilities I've forgotten or never knew about.

Right now, with the release of Lions of the Rock and their new attachment Bastard, Attachment play has taken a bit of a hit. But Baratheon still benefits much from well placed attachments (extra draw and +2 Str from Rh'llor's Blessing is great with a jousting character,Key intrigue characters with either through the roof str from Accepted Destiny or Asshai with deadly Black Amethyst.)

Standing Robert with Maesters is ripe for abuse, so Bastard is a good counter, but still.

My point being, Yes, Baratheon has a power domination and rush focus (Although, I play it more a slightly delayed rush balanced with saves and a few surprises,) but there are some other ways of going not entirely explored. Asshai has really 2 renown characters. (From memory Mellisandre and Thoros.)
Knights are intrigue weak, as well as lords. Ladies are hard to protect, (Am I the only one that despises the Red Wedding? Of course, if I ran it it would help me and hurt my opponent instead of him always killing Marya or Melisandre.)

Perhaps not a "Toolbox" house per-se, but I would say its the most (or should be) the "Aggro" house. (Stark, Greyjoy, and Targ seem to better fit that title more, but again, they can be built in many different ways.)

Oh and whats the deal with only 1 House Baratheon only plot? A good Baratheon only plot, (or agenda) would make me as a fan of the Lcg, and the house a lot happier. Unless its terrible of couse. Actually, any kind house Baratheon only cards would be cool.

Theme's I'd like to see developed? STANNIS. (Baratheon/Night's watch/winter/Davos etc,) Robert's ability to turn enemies into allies (That's a thing right?)
Baratheon House Tyrell. House Florent. The Rainbow Guard.

And ever since someone mentioned it on another thread Brother's at War. (Maybe a little different, but it would be a game changer for sure.)

Personally, I play Baratheon for combos (or synergistic cards). Lords, Knights, Asshai. All have little difficult to set up but cool abilities. More cards that either make them harder to break (Location/attachment/saves), or Search effects to set them up.

My poorly put-together 2 cents.

Yeah, pretty good rundown there. I would agree with most of what you said. I think that no matter what Baratheon build you're playing, you are still going to put some sort of rush in the deck, even if it doesn't kick in until turn three or four. That's the reason to play Baratheon, other than the strong synergistic themes they have anyway. No matter what turn it is, you can claim ten power in one turn of challenges. Where we run into problems is that decks like Martell and Lannister have such a huge amount of challenge denial (Martell much more so than Lannister) that it gets hard to actually get challenges through. I am thinking that Knights might be the way to go with Baratheon.

Staton said:

Knights are what I use most. Combo'd with the Lords, Fox's Teeth and Eldon Eastermond (For pushing through undefended challenges), and Highgarden, Obey the King, Marya Seaworth, and maybe Smuggler's Cove and Massey's Hook for standing effects.

For me the biggest difficulty (besides Martel and Lannister in general,) is cutting the deck so I pull what I need. There was a while when I ran an 80 card deck!

My main experiments right now are a Baratheon Stewards/Winter/Wall decks. It's cut to around 66 cards and runs pretty smooth, and the extra 2 power to win isn't much of a problem. Still need more draw though. (Since I can't run Knights of the Relm.)

Basically it runs Loyalty Money Can Buy, and Feast or Famine to get out some Lords and Ser Parmen for save, and or Gerold Hightower. Then once I don't have to worry about all the good stuff dying, I put up The Wall and make it winter. (Since these are expensive, and sometimes require a plot, it's important to mitigate the damage your opponent can do.)
The Laughing Storm works well too, to prevent important things from being discarded.
Once its set up, your opponent can't do much. Tri-con Renown/doesn't kneel to defend.

I feel with the current climate (Lanni Martel) running a maester mix, if only for the Black Iron Link and the Tin Link, might be the strongest all around defense. (combined with the attachment recursion of the Bronze Link and the Isle of Ravens.)
But again, it sort of begs for as many Maesters as possible, and the Apprentice Collar.

Knights are my favorite. Many have no attachments except weapons (Armies too), which now (more then before) is a benefit. Unfortunately, The only weapons I have right now are the Warhammer and the Tourney Lance. Many people dislike the Hammer, but it at least sometimes makes forces your opponent to go undefended. Tourney lance I keep for the draw and giving usually Melisandre Joust to push through an intrigue.

As much as I love knights, they're a little myopic right now. They synergise with You Swore an Oath (I use it in almost all my decks) and Tourney for the Hand, Boost Baratheon Lords, and Some have Renown and/or Vigilant. But, beyond Ser Eldon Eastermont , Ser Jon Fossoway , and the Rainbow Guard, Knights aren't much for abilities.

My point being, I have a ways to go balancing before I figure out how many to put in a deck. It's easy to just load a deck with them, a bunch of discount/income locations to pay for them, and just hope you kill enough to keep him from setting up properly. But it won't work against lannister with double bluff and secrets and spiders. Poof, two turns of them being "Safe" from your combat and you're undefended for intrigue.

Shireen , Core Melisandre, and the Laughing Storm help a lot, but again, hard to set up.

How would you run Knights in Baratheon Staton? Any tricks up your sleeve I haven't covered? (Probably, since I don't use Valar or anything in the core. I don't like using cards in octgn I don't have irl.)