My friends and I are gaming right now and disagree about advancing on from our initial careers. I've read the rule book, specifically pages 42-46, as it relates to advancing into our next careers. I believe that you must first satisfy the four fixed career advances and then complete all 10 advances specified on a character sheet to qualify for the dedication bonus specified on page 46. They believe that you must complete just the 10 advances on the character sheet before you qualify for the dedication bonus and can advance.

Who is correct?

You have to fullfill the 4 fixed advances and another 6 from your career's set, freely chosen. It's explained somewhere in the errata. You just have to fullfill the 10 advancements marked out on the character-sheet.

You must complete the fixed 4 plus the 6 which are open (for a total of 10), they are rigth.

Im not talking about simply completing a career, which I agree requires only doing the 4 fixed and then 6/10 other advances on the character sheet. What we're hung up on is what must be done to earn the dedication bonus, specialization bonuses, and spending one fewer advance.

Page 46 says "if a character stays with his current career and completes all 10 of the available advances from the advancement worksheet he is rewarded for his diligence and gains access to the dedication bonus for that career".

I read "all ten of the available advances" as the 10 flexible career advances on your character sheet, which are in addition to the 4 fixed advances.

EDIT: Although the wording is slightly different it is essentially the same paragraph you are quoting from the Player's Guide (In particular note the names of the sheets)

From the FAQ

Once a PC has all ten advance lines filled/checked off on the
General Career Advances portion of the Advancement Worksheet,
the PC has effectively completed that career. He may then spend
an advance to check off the Dedication Bonus box under Career
Completion Advances. and receive the Dedication Bonus awards as
detailed on WFRP page 37.

******

It's not talking about the 10 potential career advancement choices on the career sheet (the preprinted sheets with all the fluff on your career on it), it's talking about the 10 advances on the advancement worksheet (the one you yourself write on, with all your statistics and skills on).

A question for you to think on; if the character has used up the 10 'spaces' on the advancement worksheet that allow them to buy career advances, how do they buy the 4 remaining 'advance options' listed on their career sheet? As non-career advances? By definition they are out of career advances, how would that help them 'complete a career'?

Stop looking at the advances printed on the sheet. All they do is list what you CAN take with your 6 available open advances. You can't take all 10 things listed on the sheet, because you don't have enough advances for it.

Here is what you do:

4 Fixed Advances (+1W +1Skill +1Talent +1Action)

6 Open Advances (chosen from the 10 available on your career sheet).

You now have completed your career and can choose to spend another advancement to get the career completion bonus.

All you really need to do is look at the character sheet you fill in. It looks like this:

+1 Wound:

+1 Skill:

+1 Talent:

+1 Action:

Open:

Open:

Open:

Open:

Open:

Open:

Where are you going to fill in all 10 advances listed on your career sheet? There are only 6 available spaces. Remember that the fixed advances DO NOT count as being taken from the career sheet.

Perhaps the question is already answered - but I can't find it.

But nonetheless it would fit in here:

I completely understand the advancement mechanism and the fixed and free advances and the dedication bonus and all. But what happens if I want to train another of my career skills, although I have taken all the ones possible via open and fixed advances ?

E.g. I'm an Initiate, having taken the fixed skill advance and two open ones for the training of three skills (for Piety, Invocation and Weapon skill). Can I use a non-career advance to train Intuition ?

<Edit> Found an answer here:http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=167&efcid=3&efidt=612291

Sorry for messing up !

Bolluxx said:

The answer to your question is NO. You cannot train Intuition, which is a career advancement, as non career until you have completed the 10 available General Career Advancements. Then you will be able to pick up intution as a non-career advance.

Yepesnopes said:

Why do you have to wait until you've taken all 10 advancements? It seems kind of weird. I mean, who would want to pay 2 xp for a skill he can get for 1 xp?

i think what he was trying to say was this:

imagine a career with 2 options of skill training. we get one as fixed and the other 2 would be open. so now the character trains 3 skills, maybe observation, invocation and piety. so that are his 3 skill trainings he can do in the career. so, now he has only 3 advances spent yet, 2 of them open. there are 4 open advances left he has to fill before he can purchase another career skill like, say intuition, as a non-career advance. so he might raise one characteristic from 3 to 4 and then he can do his skill training, because he has no more "career-related" advances left.

but he could, of course purchase any other non-career right away

i hope that sound a little logic…but i doubt it lol

Yes, I saw what he was saying, I'm just not sure why he's saying it. You don't have to wait until you've taken all 10 advances before you take a non-career advance. Why should there be a special rule for this particular instance?

Yepesnopes said:

Er, the answer is YES. You can train Intuition, which is a career advancement, as a non-career even before you have completed the 10 available General Career Advancements.

You can pick up an out-of-career Skill at any point, you don't need to wait until you have completed a career to be able to train anything out-of-career.

@Ralzar: I wanted to pick / train more of the skills that were listed as career skills - yes, I had the career advancement and the free specialisations in mind

@Matchstickman: In the other thread you among others mentioned this approach. It seems logical and based on the rules. Thanks, my group and me will handle it that way. But, am I right with this one: based on my example, if I train Intuition as non-career advance, it doesn't count against the number of skill advances possible. So, I have the fixed advance and in the Initiate-career the two free" ones. So it'd be possible to train Weapon skill, Piety and Invocation as class skills and Intuition as non-career skill.

Bolluxx said:

Er weapon skill? Is that one of the options in the Priest book? I only have the Player's Guide.

But having said that, that is how I would handle it

I would also have the proviso that if you wanted to buy a career skill out of career then you have to have 'used up' your career skill advances first (purely for ease/consistency).

Matchstickman said:

I seem to remember there being rules (in SignsOf Faith?) that gave priests of certain gods access to extra skills. For example, priests of Sigmar could train Weapon Skill as a career-skill.

Matchstickman said:

Where is this stated if I may know? It probably scaped to me.

Thanks

Yepesnopes said:

It's not explicitly stated but I would counter where is it stated that you cannot do this?

If you have the player's guide and look on page 44 you can see an example of a character sheet with "Several Completed Advances", which include some in career and some out of career advances when the character has clearly not completed the current career (and given that you're meant to start a new sheet each new career they cannot have been bought prior to being in a career).

On page 45 under the heading Non-Career Advances it says

Characters have the option to acquire skills and abilities outside
their current career by spending additional advances. However,
spending advances on skills and abilities not listed on the career
card do not count as advances spent toward completing the character’s
current career.

If you could only buy them after you had filled in your 10 career advances but before you transferred into a new career then why would they need to state "do not count as advances toward completing the character's current career" because you would have completed the current career and not have started on a new career.

If you read the example text on both page 44 and 45 you will see they are essentially the same example twice but back the idea of buying a non-career skill in the middle of a career (or indeed, at any point).

you are right, but to me, that counts for real "non-career" advances. skills OUTSIDE your career, like ballistic skill for a dwarf slayer. not for advances that cannot be made in my career anymore because i already maxxed that out.

to me, that corrputs the system. if the career states 2 skill trainings it is meant to have those 2, not 5, even if i pay more for them…

nephtys said:

is that what this whole game is about, corruption?

let's put it this way: just house rule it, that specific question is not answered in any book

Matchstickman said:

Er, thank you for clarifying that you were using your intuition to answer the question of Bolluxx.

What you say makes sense to me, although it is not in the rules. On the other hand I agree with nephys, I think non-career advances are ment for things not listed in the career sheet, with the exception commented in the FAQ (which then leave open question like can you buy fortunes, wounds or stance pieces then as out of career advances?)

What I will do is forward the question of Bolluxx to FFG to see what they officially answer.

Thx

Personally, I see no reason to not take career skills as out-of-career skills. I mean, you have to pay 2 xp for it; which means you really, really want it. I see no reason to deny players what they want when they're willing to pay the cost of it.

They intuition of Matchstickman and others were good.

Here is the official answer

"> Message from:

> Yepesnopes
>
>
> Rule Question:
> Dear development team,
>
> I would like to know if it is possible by using non-career advances, to train another of my career skills when I have taken all the allowed skill advancements via open and fixed advances?
>
> E.g. I'm an Initiate, having taken the fixed skill advance and the two open ones for the training of three career skills (say Piety, Invocation and Education). Can I use non-career advances to train the career skill Intuition by paying the extra cost?

Yepesnopes,

Yes, you can.

Enjoy the game!

~Dan Clark
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games"

Gold old Dan, always ready with an answer.

Thanks for asking the question Yepesnopes

Yes, thanks a lot !