I have been looking to catch up on the cardpool. (I stopped about halfway through Rituals of the Order.) But looking at the latest chapter packs, there seem to be very few gems, especially looking at Never Night and Shadow of the Monolith. I also didn't see anything in the forums discussing these packs in particular. Did everyone else find them rather underwhelming? Into Tartarus and The Breathing Jungle had a few good ones, and of course there are the story cards which are cool, but overall, this cycle was a little 'meh': very few characters with a good icon spread, really strange situational events, etc.

My opinion is this cycle could be better only if each pack offered a free real life Natalie Portman or Brad Pitt with every pack.

Jokes aside. It's the best set I've seen since I've entered the game. Sure it has a few cards that are (relatively) less usefull, but I can't see the mechanical fault (yeah, before you say it I agree with you the wording of some cards could be tightened).

Can you give me an example of which cards underwhelm when compared to summons / dreamlands / order ?

I don't think I could disagree with the OP more. By all accounts, Ancient Relics has been a superb cycle. Setting the high quality of the artwork aside, I consider many of the cards released in Ancient Relics to be eminently playable, and some are nearly must-haves.

I would agree that this cycle wasn't character focused (it didn't include any Ancient Ones, for example), so if that's the only type of card you're looking for then you might be disappointed. Maybe. However, the relics in Ancient Relics are fantastic, and as that's the cycle's central theme, I'm quite happy it was done well.

Here are but a few cards that I find really shine:

The Large Man
Aziz Chatuluka
Forcing the Truth
Mr. David Pan
The Guzheng
Lethargic Miasma
Apeirophobia
Enslaved Yeti
Temple of R'lyeh
Mask of Sthenelus
Mi-Go Skull
Stygian Eye

And of course, how can anyone forget Khopesh of the Abyss?

Here's hoping for more of the same from Revelations!

Carioz said:

As much as I'd love to have a Natalie Portman, I just can't see myself buying NN and SotM. A few that I found from NN, for example:

Jacques Artois - wounding effects are plentiful so during planning phase his ability does nothing, and during a story it doesn't work, so you have to have something wounded during story phase and then he gets more of the same icons.

Horrific Light - 3 cost to do the same thing Khopesh does better.

Ice Shaft - too expensive and rather poor removal at 1 for 1, will serve more as a deterrent until it's just removed from play.

The Forgotten Explorer - won't last more than 1 or 2 rounds with that crippling forced response, especially against a deck with an average amount of terror.

Premature Detonation - why would I ever want to spend 3 to exhaust everything, when my opponent will ready on the next turn?

And half the characters in this pack have multiple of the same icons, which is usually just unnecessary. Icon spread is much superior imo.

And from SotM:

Magnus Stiles - kill my own guys to get some success tokens. Perhaps a good finisher, if you can get him out and keep him out with enough sorcerers on the board. Except there aren't a lot of cheap sorcerers (or sorcerors for that matter)

Taste of Lifeblood - use a domain to refresh a domain and waste a card. Am I missing something here?

Wooden Homonculus - we've seen this in Eat the Dead, which never seems to work since it requires destroying. Sacrificing or returning to hand neuter it.

Painter of Delusion - It may be that I just don't understand lunatics, but he seems way too expensive for mere character ability cancel, which is meaningless if there are enough domains or the character doesn't exhaust to trigger it. If my opponent had a location that said "Pay 1 to drive a character cost 3 or lower insane" that would seem pretty good to me, which is essentially what it happening if the opponent's character ability requires you to pay 1.

Yipe said:

Yes, setting the artwork aside, as it is always spectacular. I'm talking only about the cards abilities, text, and whatnot. And mostly of those two packs I named (I've already got the first 3).

I'll agree that many you named are good, some very good. Yes, most of the relics are done well. Now that you mention it, it may be my disappointment in the characters. It seems that if it has willpower, or a decent smattering of icons, it must cost 5. Or they have very situational abilities which I can't see comboing in time with all the removal in the environment.

Perhaps I've just forgotten how to evaluate cards. And I hope to be proven wrong by spending some time messing around with them.

Before I go any further, I'll say that it's okay to feel underwhelmed if you didn't find the type of cards you wanted in the Ancient Relics cycle. Obviously I feel otherwise and would recommend a second look, but it's okay if not every individual AP has what you need. That's the beauty of the LCG format - you know what's in it and can easily skip it!

Now, taking a closer look at specifically Never Night:

At first glance I didn't give Apeirophobia much thought. Now I realize you can choose a high-skill character with either willpower or terror so your opponent must discard a sizeable amount of cards - perhaps even their entire hand - as the target can't be driven insane. Even when used against lower skill targets, this could be a bothersome event to play early on, after your opponent has held onto cards they wanted for their opening moves. Imagine if you played it against an early blocker like Cannibal Ghast or Ghoulish Predator? Ouch.

Horrific Light is different than Khopesh of the Abyss. With Khopesh, you wound to inflict a wound. Horrific Light destroys, not wounds, which is a nice way to remove those lower-cost yet pesky characters with Invulnerability (I'm looking at you Carl Stanford).

I think this card would combo very nicely in a Cthulhu/Syndicate deck. Use the latter faction for toughness boosting with Dutch Courage and skill lowering effects (too many to list). Heck, when paired with enough skill reduction, this gem could take out a bigger Ancient One as Horrific Light doesn't refer to printed skill, just skill. I dig it.

I won't go into too much detail of the other cards from this AP, but I suggest thinking about Eon Chart, Even Here She Dwells, Tunnel Lurker, and Temple of R'lyeh, and how they could match up with existing cards to create some exciting combos. Temple of R'lyeh seems like an obvious choice to pair with Hydra and a Deep Ones deck.

Moving onto Shadow of the Monolith:

Taste of Lifeblood won't be in a lot of decks that's true, but perhaps it would work in combination with another faction? Possibly one where you would want to refresh a heavily-resourced domain in order to have it available on your opponent's turn (e.g. to play a big Shotgun Blast)?

Family of Fishers seems like a no-brainer to include in an all Deep Ones deck where terror can be hard to come by. Even if not in a 100% Deep Ones deck, when it goes to a story alone you get 4 icons and skill 2 for only cost 3. Plus the Deep One subtype plays off many excellent cards. Definitely playable.

I can see uses for Dr. Henshaw as well. Agency is typically lacking in arcane, so this could be a nice way to ready a solid set of blockers, or force your opponent not to block (so you can't ready most of your characters) while you pick up 3 success tokens in exchange. A win-win either way.

I don't see any real problems with Wooden Homunculus, but maybe I'm missing something? While I won't be putting it into every deck, if I have plenty of 1-cost event cards to play (or cheap curses to combine with Telepathic Chthonian), I would consider it.

Deciphered History seems like a nice way to slow down a Mythos deck, especially as one success token may be all an opponent can score at an opposed story.

Anyway, those are just a few of my rambling thoughts on the cards from Never Night and Shadows of the Monolith. I will say they are my least favorite of the Ancient Relics cycle, but that doesn't mean they aren't good, just that the other packs were really good!

Have fun gaming and welcome back!

Carioz said:

The overvaluing of icons spread vs icons concentration is, for what I've seen, very common in AGoT players. In CoC icons distribution is much less important than: some / at least one T icon per char; as many C icons as possible.

I'd take the business icons and keywords (One Terror, Combat, Fast, Invulnerable, Toughness) over the "accelerator" icons and keywords (Arcane, more Terror, Investigation, Willpower) any time of the day (absent character abilities of note).

Jacques Artois: what is the planning phase exactly? Since you like the Khopesh so much, you could see how to multiply him (cost 4 makes him moot though).

Horrific Light: wound to destroy is much different than wound to wound. Example: Khopesh has a hard time dealing with chars with toughness and invul. Horrific Light bypasses those. Then again, both Khopesh and HL are from the same cycle...

Ice Shaft: I've found it ok.

The Forgotten Explorer: agree, poor char for the cost.

Premature Detonation: agree.

Then you have bombs like Temple of R'yleh (I am assuming you are an AGoT player, so think Gharlston Grey) or James Crusher in the same pack.

Monolith... I can't comment as I haven't it yet.

Yipe said:

The overvaluing of icons spread vs icons concentration is, for what I've seen, very common in AGoT players. In CoC icons distribution is much less important than: some / at least one T icon per char; as many C icons as possible.

I'd take the business icons and keywords (One Terror, Combat, Fast, Invulnerable, Toughness) over the "accelerator" icons and keywords (Arcane, more Terror, Investigation, Willpower) any time of the day (absent character abilities of note).

I understand that terror and combat are "better" icons, and most characters don't have terror or willpower. There is a ton of fast in this set though, so that's something.

And again, maybe my AGoT background is showing when I say I want more cheaper good characters, and this set it lacking in that department.

BUT, I will take another look. Thanks for helping me see it in a different way. I'm looking forward to getting beat down at regionals.

***Sorry, quote isn't working too well.

Well, I think we would all like cheap characters with great icons and keywords, but I'm glad the designers have resisted the temptation for power creep in Cthulhu. As characters are the bread and butter of this game, it's good to see they're being judicious with the cost-to-quality ratio. Personally, I much prefer characters with interesting abilities that you can pair up with other cards to enact unforeseen yet devastating combos, instead of having juggernaut characters that plow through the opposition on their own.

Besides, I think we can agree that the game already has a lot of outstanding characters to choose from. And I've often found it's the events (and to a lesser extent support cards) that add the spice and suspense to my Cthulhu games, as opposed to characters with a great icon/keyword spread. It appears this cycle focused on supports and events, rather than characters, which seems appropriate to its theme.

I have a feeling that the next cycle will bring us more characters in the form of Relic Hunters, that will interact with the support cards from Ancient Relics in some exciting ways. I can't wait to see what the future holds in... Revelations.

The Relic hunters sound interesting, plus I'm very interested in seeing the Tomes and related cards from the next set. Those sound really interesting and thematic to me.

Danigral said:

Yeah, this.

Removal is already a powerful thing, but now it has been taken to new levels of stupid. Want to play Nerds? Fuggidaboudit.

That said, I still agree with Carioz that this is likely one of the best if not the best asylum cycle this game has had in the LCG format.

Yipe said:

Do you mean this game (Call of Cthulhu)? or the faction Cthulhu?

Because if you are talking about the faction, then you have to be friggin kidding me. Kopesh alone was enough to bring them to new heights of ridiculous.

Hellfury said:

I mean both, and no I'm not kidding. Of course, my assertion is one of opinion and not fact. These kinds of things are quite subjective after all, but I've played enough games that have experienced real power creep to feel comfortable saying the CoC designers have done a good job in keeping things balanced so far.

Here's the criteria I took into account:

1. Ancient Relics is the sixth cycle since the Core set release. Currently, there are 8 cards on the restricted list and 2 that are banned. Only 1 of those cards is from a newer cycle - Lord Jeffrey Farrington - and half are from either Secrets of Arkham or Dreamlands, which are some of the oldest cards to date.

2. Khopesh of the Abyss is just 1 card out of 120 in the Ancient Relics cycle. I haven't heard major complaints about any of the other cards.

3. To date, the Cthulhu faction has 106 different cards (I believe that's correct, but the count could be off a few).

4. Currently, there are 0 Cthulhu cards on the restricted list.

This doesn't strike me as a game that is undergoing a large amount of power creep, or a faction that appears to be out of control. I'll agree that Khopesh of the Abyss is a strong card, and perhaps it will end up on the restricted list at some point, but I can't see how 1 card out of 1 cycle equals "new heights of ridiculous". That comment strikes me as more hyperbole than substance.

So that's my case against power creep, though to be honest, I imagine you and I will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Meh. What do I know? My remarks are more hyperbole than substance.

I agree with Yipe that there's a difference between one powerful card and power creep. Power creep is an across-the-board thing where most cards (or models or whatever is in the game) are getting more powerful. This is one specific strong card. There are single strong cards from many asylum packs, so by itself Khopesh isn't a sign of across the board power increases. If there were quite a few cards with complaints then it would be a different story and I'd be more suspicious of the way the game was going.

I suspect Khopesh may end up on the restricted list eventually. FFG is watching and seeing how things turn out, whether this is necessary or the cards is strong but not over the line. If it ends up being a bit too good, it will be fixed, but I'd rather have to suffer through a while than have FFG forced to make a hasty decision. I've been there, I worked for a minis company and from time to time we got complaints that a new model was too strong and we'd have to take time to do more playtesting while watching the community to see if there was merit in the claim or not.

Yipe said:

I hope Revelations is good, too. But I hope Damon doesn't just spend his design space trying to make his mark with new mechanics, and does more to develop existing sub-themes, which will do a lot to make the overall cardpool more playable.

dboeren said:

Been there. Done that. Bought the T-shirt a dozen times over the years with this game. Sadly, in order to glean a decent amount of feedback you need a fair bit more feedback than 10 posters either praising or whining about a card on a forum.

And that is about we have have at any given time being active for this game.

As far as the difference between a powerful card and power creep:

You both know how many cards each faction gets in each cycle, right? 20 if the faction is lucky.

Even one single card is enough to warrant calling it power creep if that card so vastly effects the meta game. Magah Birds. Seventy Steps. Interrogation. And those were just cards that comboed well with each other.

Here we have 1 single card. 1 single card that heavily dictates meta all by its little lonesome self. While certainly not unbeatable (like any card) it;s current form gives Cthulhu's already rather potent win conditions of board control more ease.

This isnt MTG where each color gets 100 or so cars per highly frequent release.

I am not some noob that has been playing this game for a few months whining about how something is overpowered. Rudimentary game design is not something that is lost on me.

When a single card defines meta in such a shallow card pool, that that is a sign of powercreep. Not just an overly powerful card.

Before Khopesh, I was already playtesting against strong Cthulhu monofaction decks. That hasnt changed one bit and it just gets harder and harder to build around board control. Monofaction board control has gotten too quick and too powerful when other decks typically use 2 or more factions to do their strategy.

If I have to worry about one single monofaction deck build everytime I try to make a competitive deck, each time new cards are released. That is power creep. Pure and simple, boys.

I don't think anyone is calling you a noob. From what I can gather, you're involvement in this game goes back a long time - far longer than mine, to say the least. It looks like you've laid out your reasons for power creep in CoC, and with the Cthulhu faction in particular, while I gave my reasons to the contrary. I'll refer you back to my last post and simply say "we will have to agree to disagree" on this matter.

Who knows, perhaps the 2012 tournament season will prove your assessment to be true? For me, I'm just looking to play a game where I have fun, don't have to spend a fortune, can be reasonably creative, and not worry overly much about balance, power creep, meta-game, best this or that and the like. I've played games that are the opposite - with vocal fans that argue endlessly on the internet - and I don't want to go down that road. Ever again. Give me a quiet game please, where the grumblings are small (if any) and the fans are supportive of one another, and I'm content.

Hellfury said:

If it's only the case for the occasional outlier card, it's not power creep.

If newer cards are only better situationally, it's not power creep.

Basically, as long as there are still cards from the core set that are basically must-includes, and there are newer cards that basically suck, there's no power creep.

An example for power creep would be if Cthulhu gets a character with cost 1, skill 1 and toughness +2. This character would be strictly better than the Innsmouth Troublemaker.

It's true that the Khopesh changed the meta. But that doesn't mean that it invalidates all of your old cards. It means that you may have to include _different_ cards, some of them from the core set, to be able to counter it.

Change =/= Power Creep.

jhaelen said:

I didn't know Graham (The_Rip-Off) since I assume he left at the game's transitional phase, but he brought up something about Khopesh not being substantially more efficient in terms of removal than other things, and still able to be countered. I suppose that through some mystical logical process he determined that in its easiest carnation (probably a 1-cost toughness +1 character and Khopesh) it needs 1) drawing the 2 card combo, 2) 3 combined cost, 3) and destroying one of your own characters in the end, to equal 2 character removals from your opponent. When I look at it that way, it doesn't seem as good, and while the returns increase the more toughness you have, it's still doesn't seem incredibly efficient. (Yes, it's still good, but not over the top).

I think what makes it seem worse is that the wounding is all concentrated, and much more efficient early game, whereas previously, effects were most likely one at a time in the early phases of the game (Deep One Assault, Sacrificial Offerings), and more global late-game (In an Unmarked Grave, In the Wake of the Sleeper). While I have little experience playing in the current meta, this seems to me to have the effect more of slowing down turn 1 or 2 rush decks, and placing more of an emphasis better character distribution and perhaps on characters with toughness.

And I must say that I was wrong about the later packs of this cycle. There are definitely some gems in them.

Apeirophobia is brutal, especially against Shub, which is very reliant on terror and can field higher skill characters more efficiently). Don't know how I missed that at first. Ice Shaft is great in syndicate with a simple Bouncer or Singer - it can get rid of those pesky Y'golonacs and other AOs. And while I definitely wouldn't equate Temple of R'lyeh to Ghaston Grey (from AGoT), it is decent.

I'm still not thrilled about the last pack, but Dr. Henshaw is okay - definitely finds a place in a Agency/MU rush deck with Dr. Carson. And Mask of Rakinui is good... Mask, meet Carl Stanford. Fishers too are okay.

Just need to look on the bright side, I guess.

Danigral said:

You know Jaques Artois works in the Story phase right? It is a forced response not a regular response. From the FAQ...

"(2.15) Forced Responses
A Forced Response must trigger, if
able.
For example: Darrin has Bokrug
(Ancient Horrors F10) in play. During
a story, Darrin’s characters lose a
combat struggle and Bokrug is chosen
to be wounded. Even during the story
resolution phase when normal actions
and responses cannot be used, Bokrug’s
Forced Response which reads, “After
Bokrug is wounded as the result of a
# struggle, choose and wound another
character committed to that story, if
able.” must trigger."

Think of him like insurance, if you do end up losing a combat challenge somewhere you resolve that story first and then hammer them back with Jackie boy. Heaven forbid he has a Ravager from the Deep try to commit during the same phase.

Not a total bruiser, but not useless either. Best in combination with other cards I would imagine... and that is the thing I like about this set. A lot of stuff has some high possible synergy going on. Not just within its own cycle but with older cards.

I don't think Damon is too focused on new mechanics. Technically there haven't been any in this game since he has taken it over, just innovative use of card effects to create mechanic like effects. Compare Shadows, Melee, and Joust to Relics. It is a card effects on cards that share a subtype -- versus a new subphase with new rules governing it, or new keywords. Actually I think we would be fine with a new mechanic or two, but that doesn't seem to be the way this game really has developed. In AGoT it seems like a new mechanic comes around once every 1-1.5 years. Then again that game has a much larger audience and is driven by a best selling series of novels and award winning cable show.

When the #$%@ are we going to get a blockbuster or best-seller?

Penfold said:

When the #$%@ are we going to get a blockbuster or best-seller?

...after the passing of "strange aeons [when] even death may die."