This situation just came up for me for the first time and I wasn't sure how to handle it. A card effect was attempting to send a shadows card back to shadows, but the card was duped. Can I discard the dupe to prevent that? I know dupe can save from return to hand, discard and kill, but this situation never came up. My gut says no, because for some reason I think that dupes can only save from a leaving play state and i think shadows falls into that grey area of not out of play but not in play either. Any official text you can point me to would be great.

Just looking at the rules I would say no. The core set rules lay out specific effects you can save from with Dupes. The Shadows rules don't say anything about being able to save from returning to shadows, so I don't see anything suggesting you can. I'd still email FFG about it though to see if its something they want to amend since the Dupe rules were created before Shadows obviously.

dh098017 said:

The Shadows area is a lot more like your hand than it is like cards in play. Any card in it is not common knowledge, but opponents know it is there, how many are there, and the different ways they could come into play. So you'll go a lot further if you think of Shadows as a separate, "second hand" than as some sort of "almost-in-play" state.

That said, here are a couple of things about dupes and saving being forced into Shadows from play:

> The rulebook from the Core Set was written before Shadows existed. Since the rulebook cannot predict the future, saying that the dupe rules there don't say anything about Shadows really doesn't prove anything.

> The rulebook does specify that dupes can save a card from any effect that would remove it from play - by specifically mentioning all ways a card could be removed from play that existed at the time.

> The FAQ was updated in a number of places - though not all - to clarify that moving a card from "in play" to Shadows was considered leaving play (including the card becoming moribund when forced from play into Shadows).

> The "Duplicates" section of the FAQ only talks about saving a card from being killed or discarded as being a "gained" triggered Response. Knowing for sure that dupes can also save from being returned to hand or deck, are we to believe that the dupe save is not a "gained" triggered Response when saving from these things.

What it all boils down to is this: there is no reason to think that the list of things a dupe can save from in the rulebook is an exhaustive list - because it pre-dates Shadows and the FAQ entry on dupes doesn't even mention all of the things listed there. Rather, it seems clear that dupes can save from any effect that would remove a card from play (assuming no "cannot be saved," of course). Returning to Shadows is clearly leaving play - both practically and by rules text.

As such, I consistently rule at all events I judge that dupes can save a card from being removed from play by being forced into Shadows.

I would say that it does not only because if the rules for dupes were to cover any removing from play then they would have just said, save from any effect that would remove the unique card from play. Why go through the trouble of writing it all out if it was meant to be all inclusive. I do agree that FFG might rule that way, but the rules seem to not explicitly say it so I'm a bit uneasy about assuming you can. Especially since we are working on an assumption here, rather than hard concrete rules. I'm going to shoot Damon an email just to verify. No offense to you of course Ktom.

I also want to point out that The Queen of Dragons box came with up to date Shadows rules that are nonexistent on the Support page for online reference(as of 2 months ago at least). The shadows rules online are out of date. I forget the specific differences, but I think the QoD rule sheet at least describes how playing duplicates works with unique Shadow crest cards. Either that you can put duplicates into the Shadows or that you can play duplicates directly from your hand... can't recall which...

My point is, that rule sheet might also now state that "return to Shadows" effects can be saved from by discarded a duplicate, but we will only know this for sure if you see the QoD rule sheet.

Did the Core Set dupe rules omit any other ways cards can be put into an out of play state? Right now the "put into Shadows" effects are the only way I can see a card be put into an out of play state that is not mentioned in the core set rules.

Staton said:

And "why wouldn't they just say removed from play" doesn't explain why the FAQ says the dupe counts as a gained Response for killed/discarded, but not for returned to hand/deck. Are you telling me that because the FAQ doesn't say dupes are gained Responses for returning to hand/deck, a unique character that is immune to triggered effects could not use a dupe to save from being returned to hand/deck? If it's not a gained Response in those two areas, it's not the character's own ability - which means its immunity ignores the save.

So which inconsistency do you want to go with? That the rule book listed all ways of being removed from play that were available at the time - and the list grew, or everything that a strict, literal reading of (all) the text entails?

Bomb said: