Hi guys,

I will be starting a Dark Heresy game in the coming weeks and i have a question.

Should i use the rules as writen or should i adapt most of it for the Black Crusade system?

I hear a lot of comtempt for the Dark heresy rules set (wich is in fact older) and praise for the Black Crusade one.

But, i dont realy know how much of it (Dark heresy complains) is normal internet mimimi and how much is an actual system problem.

So, any thoughts on this one?

Thanks.

Maybe its because I'm not really into digging deep into the rules and uncover every single little thing about them...but I never really saw the difference between the two. As far as I'm concerned the stardard rules are the same.

Most of the problems with DH are adressed in the official Eratta . Beyond that, the main complaints about DH revolve around the Psychic Powers system being overpowered; if I were starting a new campaign from scratch, that's the only part I would likely swap out.

Adeptus-B said:

Yeah, people complain about DH psykers then they turn around and complain that the psyker in BC does nothing but push everything and is OP. I think it's more people just like to complain. I know I do.

Psykers in DH, if you end up with one in your party, tend to live brutally short existences. They are powerfull, but they can kill themselves or others quickly.

I would advise to just stick with the DH rules and save yourself a lot of conversion and house ruling.

The one house rule I actually like with DH psykers is a simple one. Replace the use of WP bonus with PR. This goes a long way to toning them down, yet doesn't make them useless. And they still live brutally short lives.

The other piece of advice, if you have a psyker in the party, is to make sure they have a deep, every-bone-in-their-body-quakes-in-terror, fear of witch hunters.

My group uses the BC combat rules, and we like it. But apart from that we haven't changed a thing, least of all the Psyker rules which I prefer to the BC ones.

If you're new to the system, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The DH rules are fine.

There are many little changes to the rules, not all of which are easily spotted in a quick read-through.

I would recommend going with the BC rules, as I find them more balanced and streamlined overall.

The combat rules play very differently, and allow for a more mobile, flexible combat style with less "whiff" (not so many misses all around). It also makes for some tactical diversity, removing Full Auto as the goto always superior option. We like it alot.

The Psychic powers work differently, resolving with a single WP test with modifiers rather than rolling a bunch of d10s and adding up the sum then looking for 9's. I haven't tried it yet (but we will), but it looks faster and easier. It also reduces the chance for phenomena (10% per test rather than 10% per d10) which is nice for Psykers but not for their evil psyker-hating GMs (that would be me).

Weapon qualities have been mixed up a little, and I like what I see. Many skills and Talents have been tweaked, with the result that things like Takedown is now actually feasible. Weapons have been rebalanced, so lasguns now actually hurt.

Many little things, tweaked after several years of playtesting and feedback from the 3 previous games, make for a smoother experience

I've abandoned the current DH rules for my next game and using a modified BC ruleset. Mostly because it just runs a lot better in combat, skills are consolidated a lot more and I've got no reason to ever go near Ascension again, which pretty much killed my last game. (Details for it are in the DH-House Rules Successful conversions thread) I always preferred DH as a genre and game environment to the others as it suits the group better in that I can write missions and hurl them at PC's as we lack a bit of initiative/drive from the majority of players when it comes to the more sandbox styles like BC and RT.

But if you and the players are happy with the current rules set, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

I'm with MKX on this one. My current Ascension game is a mess. We'll finish out the campaign, but all my future campaigns will run with the Black Crusade rules. I found the current DH ones incredibly clunky, which is a rather tough transition for somebody accustomed to much more freeform systems. BC is a much more comfortable fit, and in my opinion, planned out much better as a system.

Blark Cruseresy.

I would say the best addition from Black Crusade is the new Righteous Fury system. Also the broader options for what characters can do after they have grappled someone... other than that, I wouldn't introduce the Black Crusade rules at all. Various talents change completely, changing the balance of things in the game, and there are various other minor changes that might just complicate things.

Though I will accept I am not massively pleased with the new Black Crusade rules , particularly the changes to multiple attacks and Unnatural Characteristics (I personally hold that it was not the way they both worked that was the problem, but the way it was used in Deathwatch), and I am not sure I really agree with the philosophy of the free form character progression (at least in the 40k rules system. I don't have a problem in the idea in principle in other systems where I feel it works better). Not that I don't like some of the changes (the Righteous Fury change I can get behind, and some of the smaller clarifications are good, like splitting Flame into two different qualities). I am not sure why anyone would hold the original rules "in contempt". That they needed a bit of polish, yes, and that some aspects of it have been improved in time, yes, but I personally don't see any major flaws with it. Even if you do decide to go for Black Crusade, multiple attacks aside the changes won't be that big early on.

I also cannot see how Dark Heresy characters will benefit from using Black Crusade rules (in the sense that you will see less "Whiff"). The reason Black Crusade characters do better is because they are just more powerful characters, not because of the rules system they are using. Single Shot gets a +10, but then the main way low powered characters improved their chance of a hit, full-auto, gives a penalty. So, while they are wasting less ammunition, they are worse off than before (ok, unless they use a red-dot sight... which results in exactly the same bonus). Ok, melee has changed more, but people aren't that much better off. With Parry becoming a skill (and you would have to work out the progression for every class of that), Dark Heresy characters become much worse at defending themselves (if they don't have the skill they have a -20 penalty). At general skills they either have no change at all (if they have it trained) or they are generally worse off (untrained skill checks now being at -20, rather than at half skill. -20 off 30ish is worse than half of 30ish).

I would second the Dark Heresy rules being, in general, absolutely fine.

Another consideration I would put forward is that if you ever want to use a pre-made adventure (entirely, or just as help/inspiration for your own plot) you would need to change a lot of the NPC stats and probably encounters to fit the Black Crusade system. You may not mind doing it, but it could be a challenge, and would also add considerably to your planning time.

At lower levels in particular, the DH psykers are balanced by the immense risk of Perils of the Warp. This is not something to be taken lightly. The psyker themselves is in mortal peril, and will at the very least end up with a lot of Corruption by using their powers incautiously. That is before you factor in any feelings of responsibility towards the group, or the fact that your comrades may turn on you if you summon a Pink Horror!

Things get more complicated at Ascension, but if you are starting a brand-new campaign (and especially if you are quite new to the system) I would strongly advise sticking with Dark Heresy (and Errata 3.0 in the Support section of this site).

Like I said in another thread:

What I'd do right from the start is to remove unnatural traits for PCs from the rules.
Do that and everything else will be fine.

Umbranus said:

The only place they're in the rules at all is in Ascension; which isn't a level of play I'm really interested in.

I think the rules are 99.99% fine. There are very minor things that I add from RT and DW. Very minor.

bogi_khaosa said:

The Adept can get unnatural intelligence before Ascension.
And some mutations and bionics/cybernetics can give you unnaturals pre Ascension, too.

Umbranus said:

True, but Unnatural Intelligence isn't really a gamebreaker; a character with mutations is going to have his own problems with being burned at the stake and it's pretty rare.

You can get unnatural intelligence via GQ cortex implants, too.

Unnatural characteristics via mutation or cybernetics aren't a problem because EVERYONE can get them alike, so it balances out. Unnatural toughness doesn't really break the game to me, while it can make a character into a near-impenetrable walking tank, it still doesn't make them immune to psychic mindrape, daemonic possession or TB-skipping damage. Unnatural strength doesn't break the game either, it just makes you stronger and boosts your melee damage.

Only game-breaking unnaturals to me are Willpower and Agility. Unnatural willpower on a psyker throws psychic rules out of the loop, but unnatural agility breaks the game only when combined with Temple Assassin's dodge.

All in all, I think unnatural characteristics shouldn't be something you can buy via XP alone, they're far too exotic and powerful for that.

I play an adept/Sage with unnatural Int and at times it very much does break the game.
Intelligence Bonus comes into play in some ways that are not balanced around unnatural int.

Example 1: A successful use of medicae lets you heal others for Int Bonus in wounds. With an unnatural Int of say 60 thats 12 wounds with just some bandages.

Example 2: The combat formation talent lets everyone in the team use the Int bonus of the one with the talent instead of their own Ag Bonus for initiative. That's again +12 with an Int of 60. And thus often more than doubled the bonus someone would get to initiative.

With lore skill rolls the unnatural trait and it's -10 to roll difficulty is just another nail in the coffin if you're playing a sage. I often ended up rolling 7- 10 degrees of success for rolls that would normally by hard (+0)
I don't remember all those talents that add up but there is something like: get +10 to lore skill you have trained. And: If you take your time you get +10 to your roll.

So I can only say: In our game, having a Psyker/Inquisitor an Assassin/vindicare and an adept/sage not using unnatural traits would have helped maintain balance very much.

I don't actually think the Unnatural Intelligence is broken. In fact I feel it is one of the best examples of why the new system doesn't work so well. So what someone who has Unnatural Intelligence can heal 12 wounds? Firstly, its not actually that likely. You only heal Int Bonus wounds if they are Lightly Wounded. Ok, if they are Hardy or have Autosanguine this means whenever they want, most of the time that's only going to be for the first... 8 or maybe 10 wounds? Unless they have a Toughness of 60 odd (very unlikely for Dark Heresy characters, and frankly, if they have managed that they should feel the benefit) they are never going to be in the position where they can be healed of 12 wounds. Remember that until someone is heavily wounded the injuries are meant to be minor, of the sort easily sorted with a quick bit of first aid (and maybe some painkillers). OK, Hardy and Autosanguine are different but... hey, I don't think it is game breaking.

Combat Formation: I don't think it even exists in Dark Heresy. I think that is a Talent introduced in Rogue Trader... and frankly, unless you have unnatural intelligence it isn't even worth it. Either everyone can use one person's Int Bonus for their agility, or they can use their own Initiative bonuses, which will either probably be similar (nobody wants bad agility), or better (if you have high agility and/or the one that doubles your agility bonus for Initiative). OK, really slow people might benefit... but the actual guys who have built themselves for high initiative will be hurt. I could never see the point of the talent as originally written unless someone had Unnatural Intelligence . The change to that talent in Black Crusade was one I certainly agreed with (everyone gets +1 Initiative and they can choose individually whether they want to use the Int Bonus or not).

Though I can agree that their use in Ascension was broken, but that was because of Unnatural Toughness and Agility for the Vindicare, and Unnatural Willpower for the psyker (which was just stupid, as it just superpowered all the psykers powers). Unnatural Intelligence for the Sage? What amounted to essentially a +10 to Int based rolls, 2 bonus degrees of success and being a bit better at healing? Don't really see that as being busted at all.

borithan said:

It's available in Ascension, but not core DH.

I don't know if its usefull, but an extract from the dh/rt/dw/bc framework, where upto now 29 rule changes have been identified:

Use BC rule for how Primitive is handled. The rules for this quality have changed with the new Black Crusade books. Instead of counting non-primitive Armour Points double (RAW), the value within parenthesis e.g. Primitive (5) will be used as maximum damage the weapon can do regardless of the type of armour.
Note that the weapons that are equipped on the tokens MUST have weapons that have these () addition. If not its likely the FW will start throwing errors at you.<br>

Use BC rule for how Concussive is handled DH+ applies a penalty to the test of the target = DoS x 10. BC applies a penalty equal to (x) * 10.
Note that the weapons that are equipped on the tokens MUST have weapons that have these () addition. If not its likely the FW will start throwing errors at you.<br>

Use BC rule for how Unnatural Characteristics are handled. DH+ multiplies the level of unnatural characteristic against the bonus of the characteristic and then adds that to the bonus. BC adds the unnatural characteristic to the bonus value. For example, Unnatural Strength (4) adds 4 to the bonus value. Further, whenever an unnatural characteristic is used to make a test, gain a number of bonus DoS equal to half of x.
Note that the weapons that are equipped on the tokens MUST have weapons that have these () addition. If not its likely the FW will start throwing errors at you.<br>

Use BC Scatter rule for how scatter weapons are handled. In DH+ scatter is treated as a primitive weapon at long and extra-long ranges. In BC, scatter grants +10 to hit and inflicts +3 damage at point blank, +10 to hit at short, and at long or extreme is -3 on damage (min 0).

Use BC Shocking rule for how shocking weapons are handled. In DH+ shocking weapons apply a penalty to toughness tests to avoid stun equal to +10 per AP and the individual is stunned for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 damage. In BC, there is no bonus for AP and if he fails the Toughness test, he is stunned for rounds equal to DoF on the Toughness test.

Use BC Toxic rule for how toxic weapons are handled. In DH+ make a Toughenss test at -5 for every point of damage suffered. In BC the penalty is equal to 10 multiplied by (x).
Note that the weapons that are equipped on the tokens MUST have weapons that have these () addition. If not its likely the FW will start throwing errors at you.<br>

Use BC Twin Linked Rule for how twin linked weapons are handled. In DH+ Twin Linked Weapons add +20 to the target number. In BC the wielder can choose to either gain a +10 to hit or an additional hit if they score at least one hit.

Use BC Parry skill rule for parrying. In DH+ Parry is not a skill and is automatic. In BC Parry is a skill treated like Dodge.

Use BC Rule for degrees of success. In DH+ you gain 1 DoS every 10 points. In BC, you gain 1 DoS plus one per 10 points on the roll.

Use BC rule for swift and lightning Attacks In DH+ you gain additional attacks when using Swift Attack (+1 attack) and Lightning Attack (+2 attacks). In BC you gain one attack period BUT you get a number of hits based on successes. For Swift Attacks you gain 1 hit per 2 DoS; for Lightning Attack you gain 1 hit per DoS.

Use BC rules for how semi-auto and auto attacks are handled. In DH+ Semi-Auto provides +10 to hit and Auto provides +20. In BC, Auto fire<br>is at -10 and Semi-Auto is at no modifier (0).

Use BC rules for how standard attacks are handled. In DH+ Standard attacks provide no benefit. In BC, all standard attacks gain +10 on the attack test.

Use BC rules for All-Out-Attacks In DH+ an All-out attack grants +20 on the attack test. In BC it grants +30 on the attack test.

Use BC rules for Charges In DH+ a Charge grants +10 at the end of the attack. In BC, a charge does not grant +10. Instead it provides the option for the character to make a Standard attack, Swift Attack (if talent possessed), Lightning Attack (if talent possessed), All Out Attack, or a Grapple.

BC Scatter Weapons Inflict no extra hits In DH+ an attack with a scatter weapon inflicts extra hits at Point Blank range. In Black Crusade, scatter weapons do not inflict extra hits.

Use BC Rules for Talented The talented talent is not utilized in Black Crusade. Toggling this will impose that rule for tests.

Use BC Rules for Reliable A reliable weapon only jams on a 100. If the weapon is a Spray weapon, it does not jam.

Use BC Rules for Talents This rule has the following effects:<br><b>1.</b> The following talents work differently between DH/RT/DW and BC: Step Aside and Wall of Steel; Lightning Reflexes; True Grit; Sure Strike & Precise Blow; and SharpShooter.
1. Wall of Steel & Step Aside: In BC Wall of Steel is merged into Step Aside.
2. Lightning Reflexes: In BC Lightning Reflexes does not add 2x AB to Initiative Roll but rolls initiative twice and takes the higest roll.
3. True Grit: True Grit in BC reduces critical damabe by TB up to 1 vs halving the critical damage.
4. Sure Strike & Precise Blow: In BC Sure Strike does not allow the selection of one of two hit sites but reduces called shots by -10. This stacks with Precise Blow that is also now -10 vs -20 to called shots.
5. SharpShooter: In BC SharpShooter applies a -10 to called shots vs. -20 and stacks with Deadeye.

Use BC Rules for Maximal Between DH+ and BC Maximal weapons differ only slightly in terms of Blast and Overheating. DH+ Maximal adds blast to all attacks and Overheating to all Maximal uses. In BC a Maximal weapon does not overheat but adds blast only to those weapons with the Blast Weapon Quality.

Use BC rule for Operate Vehicle Skills In DH/RT/DW Drive and Pilot skills were specific to a type of vehicle. In BC, each of the Operate skills covers all vehicles within that category.<br>If you use this option without the BC Skills Rule, you will need to manually add the skills.

Use BC Awareness Skill In DH/RT/DW Awareness, Lip Reading, and Search are distinct skills. In BC, these skills are rolled into Awareness. Using this rule, in terms of the Framework automation only, will replace search tests with Awareness unless using Use Skill directly.

Use BC Stealth Skill In DH/RT/DW Concealment, Silent Move, and Shadowing are distinct skills. In BC, these skills are rolled into Stealth. Using this rule, in terms of the Framework automation only, will replace Concealment, Silent Move, and Shadowing tests with Stealth unless using Use Skill directly.

Use Zealous Hatred vs. Righteous Fury Zealous Hatred
Use BC rule for Crushing Blow and Mighty Shot Talents This rule covers the combat Talents that inflict additional damage in meelee or ranged combat: Crushing Blow and Mighty Shot.
1. Crushing Blow inflicts +2 Damage to Melee using DH/RT/DW rules and +1/2 WSB in BC.
2. Mighty Shot inflicts +2 Damage to Ranged using DH/RT/DW rules and +1/2 BSB in BC.

Use BC rule for the Crippling Strike Talent In DH/RT/DW the talent Crippling Strike does +4 critical damage, in BC Crippling Strike does +2 critical damage.

Conversion points for one level of Unnatural Characteristic The conversion number for how much one level of an Unnatural Trait is worth when converting between levels and points. When converting a level to a numeric value this number is multiplied by the level. When going from a numeric value to a level, this number is used to divide the value to determine a level (rounded up).

Use BC Rules for Traits The following traits work differently between DH/RT/DW and BC: Brutal Charge.
1. Brutal Charge: In BC Brutal Charge does x amount of damage vs a set amount of 3.

Use BC rules for Infamy Infamy is a similar characteristic to Fate but works differently in a number of ways. The primary difference is that it is a characteristic and the Infamy Bonus is the number of points per game session that may be used to modify a die roll, recover wounds, or reroll a die. When burning Infamy points you burn points from the characteristic and not from the Infamy Bonus.

That is useful, Wolph. A few nitpicks:

In BC Charge does provide a Bonus to hit. +20 in fact, up from +10 before. You can even increase this to +30 with a Talent. By the WAR this is in addition to any bonuses / penalites given by the Attack Action selected. A Charge/All Out gives a pretty nice bonus total

The rules for Swift/Lightning Attacks in melee now have similar to-hit modifiers as Semi and Full Auto bursts. (swift +0, Lightning -10).

Darth Smeg said:

Thnx. I'll pass it on.

Well I passed it on and it turns out that the dev who also wrote up the 29 rules had contact with FFG, this is his reply:

I am going off of what FFG said. BC Charge is a +10 step up. How FFG presented the bonus is very misleading. In the tables it appears to be +20. In DH you got +10 but could not combine a charge with other actions. In BC you can stack the charge with another action and thus stack their bonus.

Per Sam of FFG the +20 is a combination of +10 for the Charge and +10 for a Standard Attack… not +20 for charge.

Extracted from his response is the following bonuses… which when you subtract the bonus for the non-charge action you get the charge bonus...

1. All-Out Attack: +40 (all-out attack grants +30… which means charge grants +10)
2. Standard Attack: +20 (Standard attack grants +10… which means charge grants +10)
3. Swift Attack: +10 (Swift Attack grants 0… which means charge grants +10)
4. Grapple: +10 (Grapple grants 0… which means charge grants +10)

See the trend! :-) Charge = +10

Makes sense, I remember this was discussed over at the Black Crusade forums, and this was one of the suggested theories. Good to have it confirmed, thanks. BC really needs an errata, and soon!

Lip-Reading, Search, and Awareness are all the same skill? Were they drunk when they wrote these rules?

Seriously, the more I hear of these rules the more I dislike them.