Buying a ship can be, at least early on, one of the biggest accomplishments a party can achieve. You get to start with one, but once you have enough resources to actually go get one of your choosing, that's bragging territory, in the lower echelons of the Expanse, anyway. What about that rare day, though, when you find a ship, and it's in good condition, but you truly just don't want it? It might be hard to justify not wanting another ship, considering how useful it could be, even in the background, being flown by your organization, but if we just say you want to sell it, how much PF might you be able to get, on average? Say you found a planet that, until recently, was socked in a warp storm, and above it, there had been a shipyard/dock. In the dock ring, you find one or more functional ship hulls, maybe not pimped out, but none the worse for wear. The planet below is dead, and the ships weren't military assets, so the Navy can't just walk in and say "thanks for recovering our ships, which we are now taking." If you could legitly keep them, but don't want to, what could they be worth? Buying one is big, nut your PF doesn't decrease, whether you buy one or ten, unless you actually spend PF, in order to ensure your success. That means a 50 SP ship can't be worth 50 PF, so how many is it liely to be worth, if you were of a mind to sell it?

Sorry for the long read, and the repeating myself frequently. I just wanted to get the point home, eventually. Thanks much.

My rules: every 10 SP=1 PF. If the ship is damaged (by GM's choice) -1 PF. It function in our games well.

If they buy a ship and then want to sell(because players are tricky): buying a ship not equal with buying a bolter. So this is long-time invesment, so before they sell it, they must wait to repay the price. 1 Ship point = 1 year. So they can sell it.. after long time.

I'd agree completely that 1 SP = 1 PF does not sound right. It's way too much. Some captured ships are only going to be worth scrap, maybe achievement points or even just a bonus to an acquisition roll. Others are too full of heretical wiring to be worth the risk of sale (say chaos iconoclasts and wolfpack raiders). And there is the little matter that ships are expensive and that buyers aren't hanging off the trees. They generally have to be paid for over years - hence a bit of profit factor. Auer's ratio isn't a bad starting point methinks, perhaps a little generous for my tastes.

auer said:

and the other way round...? (given that they can find one) could they buy a say 50 SP in return for 5 PF...? Lets say that there is a conversion factor (even though they are traders themselves) and its 10 PF for a 50SP ship is. Note that 5 PF RAW is the 'wealth' of a Hive Gang... (then again I don't think that the wealth of 30 Hive Gangs equals that of one Inquisitor Lord, so I guess that the scale is not linear...)

No it's not a 2 way method. If they want buy a new ship they made acq. test, like other things. If they burn (see ItS) 10PF than this give them +100% for their test, so if they have PF 50 they automatically buy that ships.

We made some house rules in this theme. The hard way is to find the ship: (it's in the table but this forum can't recognize it.)

So the commerce test: -the ship point of the ship(and an additional -10 if this is an "empty" or "new" ship) + the following modfiers.

Raider Transport Frigatt L. Cruiser Crusier Battlecruiser Grand Crusier
Backwater System -10 -10 X X X X X
Civilized System +20 +20 +/-0 -15 -20 X -20
Colonial System X X X X X X X
Deep Void Station +20 +20 +10 -5 -10 -20 -20 Port Wander
Feral/Feudal System X X X X X X X Death World - Rain
Liege System +0 +0 -10 -25 X X X Footfall
Mining System -10 +10 -20 -35 X X X
Forge/ Hive World +30 +30 +20 +5 +/-0 -20 -20 Lathe/Malfi
Naval Installation
Peer: Imp. Navy +30 +/-0 +30 +15 +10 -10 +10 Port Wander Navy

Why complicate matters? Turn the task of selling a ship into an endeavor. The bigger and more valuable the ship, the bigger the endeavor (and thus potential rewards). Use the basic endeavor guidelines to see how much Profit Factor the whole thing is worth. These endeavors could involve things like arranging for someone to tow it back to civilization, finding a buyer, negotiating ownership with the Imperial Navy, fighting off pirates or rival rogue traders also wanting to salvage the ship, etc.

By doing things this way you don't overshadow every other element of the game whenever a ship is available to salvage or sell, but you also don't make it worthless. You also turn it into a more involved and fun process than merely calculating the ship's worth and handing it to the players.

It's more complicated to make an adventure for just this. We don't have lot of game time so this just some dice rolling and they sell. (and it's boring to sell every ship is an entire advanture.)

Well, turn it into a background endeavor then so that the players don't have to spend much time dealing with it. The profits will be smaller and there will be some risk that their minions will mess things up, but they'll still be able to get a bit of profit out of it without destabilizing the entire campaign. A bonus is that it can take some time before the endeavor finishes, so the players may have to wait a few sessions before they can see whether the sale panned out or not. There's no need to invent new rules when the main books already support this kind of thing.

This ~5 Pf doesn't matter in most cases. We use the extended acq. rules, so once per game sessions they buy 3 max 4 item/player. If you sold one ship then get profit factor. Simple rule. My party played 14 sessions yet and they captured and sell only 1 or 2 ship. Its not so much, and besides they build a fleet and gather every ship.

Another approach might be to turn the act of selling a ship into a more complex, involved narrative endeavour. How about this:-

CAVEAT VENDITOR

By hook or by crook, the players have obtained a second ship. Perhaps they salvaged it from the orbit of a dying star, or wrestled it from the grasp of a notorious pirate lord…irrespective of how it was obtained, they now seek to liquidate their new asset and reap their just reward.

However, upon returning in triumph to Footfall, the explorers encounter unexpected difficulties in divesting themselves of the vessel. Apparently, their return to the borders of civilized space has coincided with a downturn in the economy of the Calixis Sector, which is impacting adversely upon the local shipwrights, salvagers and other prospective buyers. To put it simply, no one can afford the hundreds of millions of thrones required to purchase a ship outright.

After weeks of weeding out joke offers and professional fraudsters, and engaging in tough negotiations with the handful of interested parties with the financial wherewithal to purchase the ship outright, the best proposition the explorers obtain is a halfhearted offer from a conglomerate of local Footfall merchants. These traders cannot afford to crew or operate the ship, but propose to chain it to Footfall itself and use it as a habitat while breaking up the more valuable components for scrap.

Thoroughly depressed at the prospect of seeing their noble ship treated in this shameful manner, the explorers are starting to contemplate taking this step, so desperate are they to recoup their losses. At this point, one of their servants announces that they have received a visitor. The explorers are presented with a solid gold calling card, as thick as a large coin, embossed with the words:-

JABLE HAUMANN
Interlocutor

Their servant informs the explorers that Master Haumann “offers his compliments to the noble Peers, and humbly requests the honour of an audience with you for the purpose of settling a substantial financial offer for the purchase of your worthy prize.”

Haumann, when shown into their quarters, proves to be a wealthy looking and indefinably creepy man of inscrutable age and provenance. Nothing about him speaks of a readily apparent origin: he affects the style of a wealthy borderzone trader from a previous century, with a beautifully cut tan and black robe-coat, and discreet gold jewelry. His ethnicity is not readily apparent: his lurid orange skin speaks either of extensive dermo-dyeing or a life spent under one of the galaxy’s stranger suns. This peculiar colouration, combined with orange contact lenses and auburn hair, presents an unusual monochrome appearance that hovers midway between sinister and comical.

There is nothing comical about his offer, however. He sets out, in exhaustive detail, a generous financial package for the outright purchase of the explorer’s ship, reassuringly leveraged upon promissory notes backed by House Krin. In a peculiar accent (all hard “r”s and whooshing “ch”s) he explains that he is the agent of a trading collective based upon the borders of the Ixaniad Sector, that they seek to expand their focus to the burgeoning Koronus Expanse, and that in order to do so they require a ship.

Upon a detailed examination of Haumann’s financial bona fides, the explorers establish beyond doubt that he has the assets to purchase their ship, and gleefully accept his offer. Payment is made promptly, and the explorers observe with satisfaction as their former ship, now renamed “The Valuable Lesson” slowly departs Footfall and transitions into warpspace.

The explorers later receive horrifying news.

They are informed by one of their Dynasty’s trading houses within the Calixis Sector that approximately six months after the sale of the ship, the Valuable Lesson transitioned into the Calixis Sector, on the edges of the Sigurd system’s gravity well. After a gentle three week approach towards the system’s capital planet, Sigurd IV, a wealthy hive world, and after broadcasting the correct approach codes and pre-booked security clearances for several days, the ship suddenly accelerated to its maximum velocity from just outside the orbit of the world. It careered past two orbital defence platforms and dived headlong into the planet’s atmosphere at as close to the speed of light as its engines could muster.

As a well-defended Imperial world, Sigurd IV responded rapidly, with emplaced defence laser platforms and silo-based planetary defence missiles. The shattering energies of these weapons quickly found their mark, smashing the plummeting ship into dozens of fragments…but the ship’s size and mass ensured that these fragments still hurtled to the planet’s surface with devastating effect.

Several of the largest fragments – each weighing several megatonnes – struck the planet’s central hive arcology complex at thousands of miles an hour. Amazingly, the hastily activated void shields held; but the energy released by the impact scoured the unshielded adjacent hab-block sections of the hive as if they had been bombarded by a planetary scale fusion cannon. Over four million innocent people were killed instantly, with another half a million killed over the following weeks as a result of radiation poisoning and raging conflagrations which burned unchecked across the face of the hive for months afterwards.

Aside from the obvious and terrible immediate effects, the consequences of the Sigurdian atrocity – as the incident came to be known – were far reaching. Sigurd IV entered a brief but intense nuclear winter, as the vast clouds of smoke from the hive fires blocked out the sun for months. The Josian Reach Subsector’s economy stalled, causing the entire Sector to spiral further into recession.

And, most worryingly for the Explorers, it was later discovered that an undercover Imperial Inquisitor and his retinue were among the dead, prompting the investigation of the whole incident to be placed under an Inquisitorial Mandato Extremis.
Now the Explorers face the grim prospect of being the subjects of an ongoing and highly active Inquisitorial investigation. They receive news of the Sigurdian Atrocity whilst aboard their ship, preparing to leave Footfall.

How do they react? Do they flee into the depths of the Expanse, seeking to evade the no doubt intensely terrifying prospect of Inquisitorial excruciation? Or do they immediately report themselves to their nearest Inquisitorial representative and hope for the best?

Or do they begin their own investigation into the identity and motives of one Master Jable Haumann, with a burning desire for revenge on their minds?

Who is behind the atrocity?

Haumann can be an agent of any one of a number of sinister organisations:-

-A chaos cult. The obvious and classic choice.
-The Amaranthine Syndicate.
-A rival Rogue Trader dynasty. Only really appropriate where the players have a fierce rivalry, as the rival dynasty are committing a truly terrible atrocity. However, it’s a good way to get the players into trouble, so worth a try.

How to track down Haumann

-The money trail. The players leap into a byzantine series of cut out corporations, money laundering operations and the like. Alternatively, they go after House Krin and obtain information from them directly.

-Following Haumann. Perhaps the players never trusted Haumann in the first place, and had him followed.

-The dead Inquisitor. Is the Inquisitor the real target? Or was he merely another innocent in the wrong place at the wrong time? Perhaps there is some link between Haumann and the dead Imperial servant?

-Sigurd IV. Is there a reason why this otherwise relatively unremarkable world was attacked?

-The Ixaniad Connection. Haumann said he was from the borders of the ixaniad Sector...is this true or just another lie?

Resolution

There are a number of ways the endeavour can be resolved. The players could track down Haumann and give him to the Inquisition. Or they could end up as renegades, hunted for their part in the incident. Or they might never find Haumann (perhaps he was aboard the ship when it went down) but they find out the identity of his sinsiter masters and slay them.

Just a few thoughts!

This "ship selling question" is viewpoint-dependent. In my game, our party (starting pf 35, now 56) build a trade-empire. They need ship but not all of them. So if get surplus they sell it (its rare as I said) this rules help them. They had now 2 frigates and 3 transports, and they want improve. I made some house rules for buying becasue they want buy lot of them. but if they want to sell we made it quick because there is no sense to waste time for this.

Since my players end up blowing up or melting most ships they encounter, they really don't have much ships, so they don't need to sell them.

But if we ever come to that, I think 1 PF = 10 SP is really a lot.

Example:

You players manage to capture 4 Riders, each one costs 40 SP.

That's +16 PF for just a single Space Combat, which completelly breaks the purpose of doing Endeavours (why to do Endeavours if I can get twice or more Profit just by selling enemy ships?).

The RT game was not made with the idea of selling ships in mind (since ships are difficult to purchase, so loot them is better), and if you allow it you are probable going to end up eighter breaking the Endeavour rules (like my example) or just giving your players an equivalent in PF that isn't really worth loosing a ship for.

It is very hard to capture a raider intact. My players also blow them up, capturing a ship is rare.

A couple of comments...

Lightbringer, you have a creatively evil mind. I approve - thanks for the adventure seed.

Auer, it's not that hard to capture a ship, if you're willing to hulk it. The critical hit table only has a 3 in 10 chance of the ship blowing up. There's a 70% chance you'll have a hulk on your hands. Hulks are salvageable, though there may be quite a few systems that need repairs. And, that doesn't even take boarding actions into account... If you really fancy a hull, close and board it.

Cheers,

- V.

Vandegraffe said:

The mathaholic in me demands that I point out your math is based on the faulty assumption that each result on the critical table has an equal chance of happening. Things are much more complex than that, particularly when you consider the differences between weapon types and that the critical table is open-ended.

TiLT said:

So? What does weapon type have anything to do with the critical table? Damage is damage.

In any case, let me clarify: Anything less than an 11 on the critical table leaves the ship still partially functional. An 11+ on the critical table is "catastrophic damage". If you reach that point, roll a D10. On a 1-7, you have a hulk. On an 8 or 9, the plasma drive explodes. On a 10, the warp drive explodes. The odds of my players shooting the hell out of an enemy ship until they get that 11+ critical roll is precisely 100%, based on play experience. So, as stated, there's a 7 in 10 chance of a hulk... It is just that simple.

Cheers,

- V.

@Vandegraffe: there is nothing stopping the players from just weakening the Hull with your ship weapons and then start a Boarding action. That0s what Boarding actions are for.

Also, with BFK npc rules, riders/frigates have within 33 to 45 Crew/Morale. With several small Criticals you can completelly reduce those values to 0 long before the ship starts taking Critical Damage due to losing all its Hull Integrity. That's how most combats usually end on my games rather than npc ships blowing up. As long as the ship is not on fire while that happens (which will probably destroy the ship long before you have any chance to put the fire down), I don't see very it very difficult to capture npc ships if the group really wants to.

Not quite, they can take that amount of damage before they attempt to flee the combat area, you still have to reduce them to 0 population or morale before the ship is abandoned.

Profit factor, as far as I understand it, is supposed to represent ongoing income, which is why simply buying items does not reduce it. Burning PF would represent trading off mining rights or selling small moons, obviously the Rogue Trader house could no longer receive income from those sources so that one point of PF is gone. Selling a ship, or parting it out, would provide a massive bump in profit but it's a one time increase so I propose giving the players "phantom" PF. That is to say give them PF on a 10 to 1 scale of Ship Points to PF, rounding up, but it is set aside from the base PF of the group. When the group needs to burn PF at a later date they can dip into this pool of "phantom" PF before eating into their ongoing businesses. This "phantom" PF is not combined with the normal PF of the group for basic acquisition rolls, it is only used when burning PF.