Hand of Corruption & feasibility of Chaos Space Marines

By The Laughing God, in Black Crusade

Posted at

Crate said:

The Laughing God said:

Hiding CSM in boxes? You gotta be kidding me :)

When I first started reading about the Warhammer 40,000 universe and the legions of Chaos I never considered these CSM hding themselves in boxes :) Let's face it, this is a typical RPG solution which fluff-wise just doesn't work.

@reverent Mort: so if high level human heretics have obvious mutations -> this does not solve the problem but just makes it worse. So now you don't just need to hide CSM but also the tentacled cultists :)

In Dark Heresy the cultists are often underground, sneaky cells hiding where they can ... I've always assumed BC allows you to play such cultists but this whole Screaming Vortex thing moves the backdrop premise of the game and the setting from hidden cults to Chaos excursions. This is fine ofcourse, but then the setting makes me think more of Deathwatch (open war) than Dark Heresy (investigation).

And the obvious BC would NOT incorporate a group made up of characters worshipping Khorne and Slaanesh together. However thats what the BC creators envisioned and that means you dont have to go 100% canon on everything else. My CSM would have no problem with hiding in the cargo hold if thats what it took to get off world, he knows he can not fight his way into space. His destiny isnt to die in a futile firefight against 100 Imperial Guards when he could get offworld and gather a warband to punish this world.

I do agree that a mixed group leads to problems but its up to the players and GM together to try to overcome the problems (or avoid them altogether) the best way possible and not make it impossible for each other.

I do agree that Black Crusade supports a more muted interpretation of the followers of Chaos. It's expected that they are more tolerant of one another despite differences in allegiances and what not, and it's likewise assumed that the human/space marine interactions are of equals. This doesn't fit with a great deal of the novels and such, but sometimes good gaming and the fiction are not going to meet perfectly.

Posted at

HappyDaze said:

I do agree that Black Crusade supports a more muted interpretation of the followers of Chaos. It's expected that they are more tolerant of one another despite differences in allegiances and what not, and it's likewise assumed that the human/space marine interactions are of equals. This doesn't fit with a great deal of the novels and such, but sometimes good gaming and the fiction are not going to meet perfectly.

It's all a matter of degrees in any case - sure, the individual Chaos Gods loathe and despise each-other with a passion possible only for entities coalesced from the raw, unfettered emotions of all mortal existence, but individual daemons, champions and petty worshippers are capable of independent thought, reason and machination, and while their inclinations will be coloured by their patron's nature to some variable extent (a daemon more than the greatest mortal champion, champions more than lesser worshippers), they have the capacity to forge their own alliances as they deem fit.

Posted at

My main beef is that one of the most basic interpretations of a Chaos Space Marine worshiping Khorne is nigh impossible.

The main ways of getting to Saint Annard's Penance involve going on Imperial ship that has Arbiters, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Guard and a contingent of Space Wolf Space Marines.Okay, so that way is pretty much out for the CSM,

The other way is dealing with a Slaanesh cult. Good luck, Khornite CSM guys.

Once you get to Saint Annard's Penance you are told that it is a Penal Colony. This means that is is crawling with Arbiters and Imperial Guardsmen by the tens or hundreds of thousands. The CSM who worships Khorne then has to have difficult, crucial roleplay interactions with Imperial Guards and another cult of Slaanesh.

The cult interactions are already challenging to -20 and have all these circumstances where one social faux pas means that the entire mission takes a -10 on Fellowship interactions. Anybody who worships Khorne will be found out and kicked out. Not listening to the ban on cult premises puts a whopping -30 on all Fellowship interactions.

To rub salt into the wound, it is stated that the group could just kill the cult leader, and then it gives the cult leader Unnatural Agility, Dodge and Parry in the 50s to the 70s, a Displacement Field with a 55 rating and a Slaanesh blessing that gives a power field and a force field with a 65 rating. Spectacular. His second-in-command torture mistress is every bit the bad ass in combat, if not more so.

Posted at

HappyDaze said:

I will say that I don't consider the rules on buying down Corruption from the GM Screen to be optional. IMO, if you want to have an extended BC campaign, especially one that infiltrates the Imperium, you need to burn away Corruption and that's going to cost you Infamy too.

Wait, what? Are these buy-off-corruption rules found anywhere else?

Posted at

Disrupt said:

My main beef is that one of the most basic interpretations of a Chaos Space Marine worshiping Khorne is nigh impossible.

The main ways of getting to Saint Annard's Penance involve going on Imperial ship that has Arbiters, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Guard and a contingent of Space Wolf Space Marines.Okay, so that way is pretty much out for the CSM,

The other way is dealing with a Slaanesh cult. Good luck, Khornite CSM guys.

Once you get to Saint Annard's Penance you are told that it is a Penal Colony. This means that is is crawling with Arbiters and Imperial Guardsmen by the tens or hundreds of thousands. The CSM who worships Khorne then has to have difficult, crucial roleplay interactions with Imperial Guards and another cult of Slaanesh.

The cult interactions are already challenging to -20 and have all these circumstances where one social faux pas means that the entire mission takes a -10 on Fellowship interactions. Anybody who worships Khorne will be found out and kicked out. Not listening to the ban on cult premises puts a whopping -30 on all Fellowship interactions.

To rub salt into the wound, it is stated that the group could just kill the cult leader, and then it gives the cult leader Unnatural Agility, Dodge and Parry in the 50s to the 70s, a Displacement Field with a 55 rating and a Slaanesh blessing that gives a power field and a force field with a 65 rating. Spectacular. His second-in-command torture mistress is every bit the bad ass in combat, if not more so.

Nothing a well prepared group can;t take out in a few rounds okay there may be a death on the pc side but then they have a new refractor field of a wooping 55%

Posted at

@Disrupt

Firstly, yes, stereotypical Khornite "Kill, Krush & Destroy!" characters are going to have problems. They're going to have them in almost every game that is not entirely focused on combat. That being said, it's quite possible to fix even that - remove the horns and spikes from his armour, paint him up as some obscure chapter and let him act as a retainer to one of the other characters who poses as a Rogue Trader or similar. "You'll have to excuse Brother Totallius-Notus-Khornus - he does not usually care to speak to us lowly mortals..."

As for Lord Oglanov... I really fail to see the problem. Per round, he gets two Dodges at 50 and a Field save at 65 (to my knowledge, you can't be protected by two fields at once) towards everything that bypasses that. A Khornate can generally get one or two attack rolls at least that high. His 30 wounds certainly sound many, but then again, his Armour 5/TB 3 adequately balance that. He goes down against three average chain axe hits. So... let's see:

-Enter Frenzy+Battle Rage

-Berserk Charge Oglanov with a Take Down; assuming you hit, Oglanov gets a 50% chance to evade, his field likely doesn't protect him from the non-damaging impact

-laugh at Oglanov when he does not make his Toughness check with a 35% chance

-Aim Dual Lightning Attack Oglanov while he's prone and stunned (no Dodges for you!) with a +30 bonus

-Aim Dual Lightning Attack Oglanov while he's prone (-20 Dodge) with a +10 bonus

-If Oglanov still lives, use a Feint, then Knock Down (can't be evaded if the Feint succeeds) to put him back on his pink posterior and give him a level of fatigue, putting a -10 on all his rolls

-Duke it out like men.

Alternatively:

-Grapple Lord Oglanov

-laugh as he has no Contortionist skill, there are no reactions in a grapple and every other possible action requires an Opposed Strength test to succeed. He might shrug off two thirds of your attacks, but since he almost can't deal damage at all, who cares if ibringing him down takes some time? Should he use his displacer field to escape, just grab it off him.

The rest of your group should keep El'Leth and any other troops busy. Thereafter: Hand the cult off to an Undivided or Slaaneshi heretic while you bask in your 1d5 Corruption and 2 Infamy.

Posted at

Not to my knowledge. You'll need to look in the booklet that comes with the GM Screen.

Posted at

igotsmeakabob!! said:

HappyDaze said:

I will say that I don't consider the rules on buying down Corruption from the GM Screen to be optional. IMO, if you want to have an extended BC campaign, especially one that infiltrates the Imperium, you need to burn away Corruption and that's going to cost you Infamy too.

Wait, what? Are these buy-off-corruption rules found anywhere else?

Yeah, so my last post is a response to this...

**** it.

Posted at

The Laughing God said:

Cifer said:

There are two kinds of RPG. One where the characters are relatively close together in abilities and drawbacks and one where it's possible to specialize in extremely different directions. The latter kind generally requires that you work together closely with your GM in establishing what campaign you'll play with what characters. Dark Heresy and its derivatives have always tended in that direction - going for radical missions with a Redemptionist or a sister in your group certainly won't work. Sending a power-armoured Unnatural Toughness Machine X Magos into the same combat as a robe-clad Sage will likely kill the Sage if the Magos is at all threatened.

True, I get it. But the Redemptionist could be led astray during roleplay and or 'suggested to retire' for ingame roleplaying fluff reasons. Infiltrating the Imperium's cities with Chaos Space Marines would be possible, but it would all the time require a very good entry vector for these monsters .. a large and important act in the scenario would be how to get the CSM make footfall on the planet.

I am wondering … I don't GM Black Crusade atm .. for those who do: do your adventures take place in the Imperium or predominantly in the hellish region of the Screaming Vortex?

My game is set in the outer reaches of the Screaming Vortex and will expand to include deeper regions of the Vortex and the Koronus Expanse and Calixis Sector as the players rise in ranks (aiming for a slightly longer campaign than average). As for default setting, I think the book naturally assumes the Screaming Vortex, but has information/suggestions for any setting really.

Posted at

Crate said:

Would it be possible to hide the CSM's in some big boxes or something ?

Trying to infiltrate as a CSM will require thinking outside the box, but so will many other situations in this game.

BAWKSES????

WE DO NOT HIDE IN METAL BAWKSES, THOSE ARE FOR TRAITORS, COWARDS!!!

Posted at

probably the best way is to use the transport ship as a inertia weapon, when it gets out of warp massive thruster failures prevent it from slowing down…

It just goes strait for the planet while screaming for help. It uses thruster to bend it trajectory to avoid direct collision but as to graze the planet atmosphere, during the "burn entry" chunk just fly of the ship or get torned out…

If the navy decides to hulk the ship then there will be big chunks still heading out for the planet… it may be a bumpy ride but still nothign a true warrior should fear.

Posted at

Keep in mind that humans and abhumans can uncommonly rival the size of an astartes without his armor. Gunny Harker is an excellent example. Heck, most Catachans have the physique, if not the height to pull it off. A large portion of servitors in use by the astartes come from the stock of dishonoured or brain damaged marines. Once an astartes takes off his armour, it is entirely feasible for him to blend in. I think we forget just how much of a Space Marine's bulk is his armour. I think we also forget that Space Marines do spent a lot of time out of that armour while not on active duty. Some chaos marines will have a harder time shedding it due to pride, mutations, etc, but that's nothing a Heretek couldn't fix.

Use your imaginations people. Fallen Angels have been blending in with Imperial society since the Heresy.

Posted at

What I'd really like to see a stealth mission with ogryns! xD

Posted at

PnPgamer said:

What I'd really like to see a stealth mission with ogryns! xD

*As the Ogryn tippy-toed his way across the hall, he couldn't help but yell "Sneaky sneaky!".*

*He was utterly confused as to how his enemy predicted his approach, but since he was always utterly confused, he paid it little mind.*

*Little mind*