Fire up the Gellar fields and recite the litanies, because this may just case a warp storm.

As you may infer from the thread title this is being a thread for unofficial collation of feedback you have on Deathwatch, and its subsequent supplements. Its intent is to gather the fans (or writers, general hangers-on, lost forum goers, or anyone really) thoughts on the game and their perceptions of it. Be they good or bad, right or wrong, Heretical or Un-Heretical (But EVERYTHING IS HERESY if you are a Sororita), and so on and so forth.

The keener eyed of you (or those with Scholastic Lore (DW Books) on a successful Intelligence test) may notice my tag and that it appears in a few books as a play tester for HBMC’s group ‘Roll Perils’. So when I say that I fully intend to use the insight and knowledge do a more thorough job on the books I might end up testing, and just try to help better the product line in general wherever I think possible, I mean it. And I hope you believe me when I say that, but also keep in mind that I am just an occasional tester, and I do not claim to have any level of influence over the fine staff working at FFG. If you don’t and think I am some sort of FFG plant this would be the time to hit EJECT. There will be no hard feelings, I will give you a friendly wave on your way out, and you are welcome to return at any time.

If you are still here now we can get into the meat of the thread. Due to some recent back and forth I have seen between the fans and writers, and bad blood that is potentially being built because of it, I wanted to make an outlet for everyone to bring their thoughts to the table. This will hopefully accomplish a few things;

1. I hope you feel that someone will value your opinions, even if everyone else might be shouting you down or drowning you out.

2. A concept known as a Single Point of Contact so that rather than have a hundred opinions across a hundred threads, people can just say ‘Take it to the AUDWFT’, and everyone knows immediately where to look for this stuff. And as an added benefit for those polite and civil enough it will let threads that may have devolved get back on the rails and stop the drama.

Now in order to do this in the most effective, efficient and productive manner there are some ground rules I would like to set up. These are not specifically rules as such, but more guidelines. No one has to accept your request for a parley if you get the reference.

1. Above all else PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL. If you cannot offer up your opinion in a manner that would not land you in contempt of court then it may be best not to say anything at all. Your feedback is wanted, but abuse others who are participating in a rational and civil manner will not be tolerated. Abuse of myself I will handle on a case by case basis as I wholly accept responsibility for the can of worms I may be opening. But if you come in here with honest intentions you will fall under my Aegis, and I will not let you be attacked just for having them.

2. Please try and use proper grammar, punctuation and sentence structure to the best of your ability. I know I cannot into perfect posts all the time either, but if you try it will help me read and understand it easier, and help others as well. It can also help avoid you being labeled as a potential troll, and the more you try and use it the better you will get at it.

3. Please don’t use this thread as a means of arguing the issues raised here back and forth endlessly. That is not its intent. There may very well be things posted that are blatantly wrong from time to time, and the occasional update to try and smooth out these inaccuracies may be appropriate and necessary, but this is more for seeing how people interpret the game so as to better tailor it to their needs if we can. And maybe even show demand for other lines that don’t exist yet. So if you are asked to drop it because it is getting out of hand please have the courtesy to do so.

Now that that is out of the way here is what I promise to you, the forum goer who is reading this right now (and hopefully forming up some thoughts to post).

1. I will attempt to maintain this thread to the best of my ability. I am not omnipresent and can’t be here all the time. At this point I will aim to check up on it at least once a week, and bump it then if it has dropped down (unless it gets sticky’ed, who knows). More regular checks than that are likely, but I do need the odd break from the interwebs now and then.

2. I am happy to redefine this thread in the event it evolves into something else. In that event I will attempt to keep everyone informed and keep all the change above board for transparency. I don’t want to stuff anyone around and mislead them intentionally.

3. I have no intention of pulling the plug on this thread unless things get too real yo, or by order of a mod or FFG official. And in that event I will try and keep everyone in the loop as much as possible so I don’t just look like an asshat.

4. I am under a strict NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) and thus I am limited in what I can disclose. I can only really talk about things that FFG themselves have announced, and even then I can only discuss the surface details of these products. I cannot and will not discuss the play-testing process, how things change, cut content, and what, if any, changes I or my group have ever influenced (even if I really want to!). So please understand that in the event something does help, I can’t tell you how or why (or even what for that matter).

And that is it. It is now out there, and I accept full responsibility for whatever monster I may have created in doing this. But this is a burden I gladly take on and wear with pride. FFG have given me something special over the years by not only releasing their games to play, but also giving me (via HBMC) a chance to be involved with testing it, helping to influence little bits here and there. So now I want to try and give back. And ultimately this is about you the fans (customer, contributor, or otherwise) getting something back as well. So let’s all work together so we can all play together.

Stay classy bros.

Atma01

DISCLAIMER (It’s in the sig but just in case):
I do not represent FFG in any official capacity, and the opinions above are entirely my own. Everything I say should be taken with a shaker of salt, and I like to keep it jovial where possible. In summary, even if I do play test on the odd occasion, please just consider me another idiot on the internet.

P.S. Had to edit a couple times for formatting. This forum does not like me trying to paste in Opera. So apologies if it doesn't look as good as it could. If anyone else has this problem and found a solution PLEASE let me know. I will thank you I this post for that for saving me from my own idiocy!

Well, since this was aimed straight at me, guess I'm obligated to wade into yer pool......

...to be eaten by the crocs...

meh, that's ok....i'm really gonna ruin yer gravy, though...

....so, I'm a-waitin'....

Update 1

The first update. Being a collation of some of the thoughts and opinions in the thread that spawned this. Put forth for mass consumption and further feedback.

Let me start with a simple statement, this is not 'aimed' at anyone for having an opinion in the sense it is for me (or anyone else here) to argue that opinion down. Who it is aimed at is everyone to gather people's thoughts on the matter. This helps us understand each other not only as gamers, but as people. I personally believe we as a race stopped trying to understand each other. And this leads to unnecessary conflict. So I want that point to be above board. And yes I see some of the irony in this statement being aimed at people to stop them feel they are being aimed at. But you dawg, I heard you like aiming.

So with that here is what I have so far. These are currently general talking points, and I am digging out some material based on references provided by forum goers that I can read into more deeply. Once I feel I have delved enough to get something useful to bring back I shall. Until then please look at the following, let me know how you feel on the matter/s, and I will do my best to have a good think about it and see what I can come up with for further conversation. I have numbered the points in a manner so that hopefully they can be quickly referenced later. Let me know if this doesn't work and I can go and re-think the structure (and happy to go back and edit the posts to fit a new syntax). The syntax is Update Number - Item Number - Point name/brief description , so Item 5 of Update 1 would be 1-5 - Name goes here (Sans hyphen apparently, missed that when I started, my bad).

1-1 Deathwatch is a game that was made to be played across the Imperium, not just in the Jericho Reach

This is an interesting one, and clearly one of the most divisive. I am digging out some of the references that Zappiel has kindly located at my request (thanks dude!) so I can look at this in more detail. As is my current understanding there are two trains of thought that have potentially lead to this conclusion. The first is the title of the core rule book, that being 'Deathwatch', with nothing in the fine print underneath that title in big letters. And the second being either the perceived downplaying of the Jericho Reach setting in the core book, or the perceived shift of focus to it with DW's supplements.

In regards to the first item I can see where one may get the idea. Not all game shops will let you thumb through the books front to back prior to purchase, the saying 'We aren't a library' has been used to justify that I am more than sure, and I myself am partial to sometimes just going with a whim based on a flashy title, cover art and exciting blurb. So about this item I would like to know if this is what happened to some, whether they arrived at the 'Across the Imperium' conclusion or not. And then if they did arrive at that conclusion later, whether they felt let down when they saw it had its own setting to use. Suggested, required or otherwise.

For the second item and the perceived shift of focus that the supplements have been taking, I would like to know a few things. The core item being what may have led one to believe that the setting in the core book would not be utilised or focused on later down the line. And ancillary items being, was that perceived shift (too) sudden, acceptable (in any manner), considered a dishonest way of making a quick buck by giving you a taste of the ice cream then charging full price for the bucket? Where possible I would prefer to have page numbers or references I can look up so I can examine them myself. But anecdotal will suffice if that is all you have, or willing to provide. I am willing to work with what I can.

1-2 Fluff and Rules should be separated, I shouldn't have to buy one to get the other

This can be a very valid feeling, and I definitely see where it can come from. One problem that has been thrown back and forth about it however is that it can fall to a matter of personal taste and is therefore entirely subjective, and another being that you will just end up with the flip-side of this idea and have those saying 'I wanted them together I shouldn't have to buy two to get the whole thing!'. From there it usually goes into whether fluff should compliment the rules, or rules built around fluff, and the circle on that one goes around and around, and comes back to it once again being subjective.

What I would like to know is almost a straight up and down on whether you prefer your Fluff and your Rules all mixed up together, or on the same plate (DW) but not touching one another (I never liked my foods touching, it felt unnatural)? Any thoughts on that second item about which way the complementation should be, if at all, would be a bonus. And of course anything else of value you think you can add to the point is more than welcome, it is encouraged!

1-3 If it's not in the books, it doesn't exist

A thorny issue is I ever saw one. As it doesn't relate to just DW alone and potentially would be a question about one's one preferred play style, the responsibilities of the GM, homebrewing for fun or necessity, and just all round mentality towards playing PnP RPGs. So to keep it DW related to some degree, and this would feed into Point 1-1 I believe, do you feel that the release of supplements for DW limit your playing ability by walling off the universe that the game is set in? Please note the use of universe and not setting. As the game setting is the Jericho Reach, and the universe the game is set in is Warhammer 40K, and that is what has caused some of the contention, and partially resulted in this thread's creation.

If there were book supplements, sidebars, or even Online PDF releases that expanded the setting, or explained how to expand the setting yourself via translation of the existing rules, would that be something you are interested in? And would it help those that feel the setting is too narrow for what they consider to be the proper scope of the game? And for those who don't feel hemmed in, would that get in the way of your play, or just be a welcome addition?

This is actually the Point I am most interested in hearing about to be honest. As a race of over 4 billion individuals at last count (my maths may be wrong) and growing I expect opinions to vary, and the more ways I can read a book in different mindsets the better. Walking a mile in someone else's shoes as they say can teach you things you may never have even considered. So I certainly welcome the opportunity.

1-4 How much overlap is too much overlap?

As pointed out in the cursory review of the Jericho Reach book done by ddunkelmeister, and thanks for that by the way as people certainly appreciated it and it gave us something to talk about, there is certainly some overlap in fluff with The Achilus Assault. Whilst it can be presumed that some of this would be intentional so that someone who has one book and not the other, how much would you consider too much? And if none at all, would you feel that you were put in a position that you had to buy one to understand the other then?

This partially ties into Point 1-2. The irony of overlap in a query about overlap is not lost on me. Some form of overlap-ception clearly. Unfortunately there is no smiley for the BWOOOMMM noise.

1-5 Why was my fluff invalidated?

Oh no more overlap! Once again this ties into another point, that being Point 1-3. It has been put forth that some feel their fluff, that formed through play in the Jericho Reach setting, has now been invalidated by the Jericho Reach book. Rather than go back into the discussion on GM responsibilities and what not, I would rather use this point to ask about two thoughts that were raised on this matter. Those being the concept of whitespace and a shared universe that all play groups could exist in.

Whitespace is the idea, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am trying to pick this up 2nd hand more or less, of having a little hemmed off part of setting that is purposely left vague and undefined so that the GMs can develop that area themselves. This would mean that anytime the GM wants to do something without potentially conflicting with 'official' plots released in the books he can just steer his team to this zone and let loose. What I would like feedback on for this is whether this idea could work? Is it just in its own way recursion of the larger issues, as in FFG have a setting to play around in that doesn't require GW to check their future plans every time they decide to blow up a planet as a random example (I assume that is how it works!), so this is in some ways the same concept at a micro level? Would things being left vague just wet your whistle and make you want them defined even more? Things like that.

As for the idea of a shared universe this was mentioned as it was felt that any two random groups, or different groups run by the same GM, should be able to jump in and out of each other's games without having to worry about reconciling major fluff. Do you feel this is possible on any level, and if so what would be your personal requirements for it to work? Is it something that you feel key to the game's survivability? And lastly do you feel it a reasonable request to be made of the product?

Part of me certainly would love to see those ideas work since it in some ways supports the mentality 'Lets all play together!'. And it may just boil down to a question of viability and how far people might be willing to go to make it work. So at the very least we may be able to define where that faint line lay and where concessions may have to be made. At least in some respects it can all get us on the same page.

===

That's about all I have for tonight folks. I am sure there are things I missed, but I tried to do as much as I could in a reasonable amount of time. I hope you all enjoyed reading it as much as I did writing it, and I look forward to ANY feedback you all have. Nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted (unless in violation of the guidelines or forum rules ) . Feel free to add anything else you may think pertinent to your replies that I may not have specifically asked about or for. Like I said the more the better.

Once I have some feedback, or I find/think of some more stuff I'll do another update. And by all means suggest Points you would like to see on there. The more we have to talk about the better. But now I am repeating myself. So that means it is bed time. Just need to do a quick check of the perimeter for spiders first.

Stay classy bros.

Atma01

I have a question:

If Dark Heresy has a bunch of supplements that are all geared around the Calixis Sector and Rogue Trader has a bunch of supplements that are all geared around the Koronus Expanse... then why is the idea of Deathwatch having its supplements focused on the Jericho Reach such a huge problem, or something that is seen as untoward or bad?

I mean, given that there's more background on the Jericho Reach in the DW core rulebook than the Imperium/Deathwatch sections combined (I believe), shouldn't it stand to reason that Deathwatch might - just might - have a specific setting just like the other two games and, on top of that, how acting surprised or outraged that the supplements do cater to that setting might be considered a little strange?


So that was kinda two questions.

BYE

Atma01 said:

Another part of it is extrapolation and consolidation - Achilus Assault and other sources were referenced heavily during the development of Jericho Reach in order to ensure as much as possible that the history and themes of the Jericho Reach setting remain consistent between books. Certainly, in the sections I wrote, I used the Achilus Assault material (in manuscript form, as the book hadn't yet been published at the time), the background in Mark of the Xenos, the downloadable timeline, and the Core Rulebook all as starting points to be expanded and elaborated upon.

Atma01 said:

Thing is, as I see it, there is already plenty of 'whitespace' available. The Jericho Reach is colossal, and only a fraction of it can and will ever be written about in official materials. There is no reason why people can't take the opportunity that this presents to build their own worlds into the Reach, using the Jericho Reach background as a context within which these original worlds exist.

Well I have only some little feedback to give to DeathWatch.

I wish for more adventure seeds. At best another bestiary or guidance book for GMs. Surely the adventure seeds in the various books give a lot and inspire me greatly, but sometimes I would more advice on how to run different mechanics, what works great with some things etc. Sure this might only a product which would cater to only a select group, so I don't see any of this happen.

In addition, while I personally find that it is good that a lot is connected to the Jericho Reach (so decisions the players and NPCs are making have some noticeable effect), I wish it wasn't that one-sided. Especially the Warp Gate is a two way device (as I understand it) and I find it reasonable that the DeathWatch might have to protect also the other side - not only for the crusade, but not to let xenos and herectics use it to flood the Reach with it's foul stench. I would love to see how the connection to the Calixis Sector affects the DeathWatch. However since I don't know anything about the Calixis Sector itself, I don't know how reasonable this suggestion is. - While it might not merit a resourcebook, maybe an upcoming adventure book will take a little detour for it - which would be sufficient in my eyes.

- Kiwamu

It's funny to see that some persons want to surpress any discussions about a different approach for future publications right from the start with the explanition that everything is fine as it is.

If this would be the case, then there would be no need for this thread at all!

So business as usual is not the way to go and we should work on some compromises which will probably not end in the rewriting of the setting in favour of one group but at least no one will have the feeling that his group was left out.

1-1 The corebook left not only the impression that DW will take place in the whole universe with the Jericho Reach as one starting setting, but I always thought it will be expanded beyond Deathwatch as an Organisation as well, because there were (and still are) a lot of references why Advancements where repeated in the tables. We were told that this is for future characters who didn't have the Deathwatch-background, which led me to believe that non-DW-SMs will be covered in future publications. As we are speaking of Deathwatch specific Advances the available Hatred Talents also gave me the impression that DW is more about Xenos than about Chaos and there really is no use in Hatred for a Xeno-Race which didn't even show up in the setting.

1-2 It would be nice when I don't have to buy books with content I have no use for but I'm realistic that FFG won't even think about it because it would mean less profit and I really could live with that as long as there is a fair balance between crunch and fluff. For the record: Achillus Assault was anything but not balanced!

1-3 As I've written in another thread additional sidebars with suggestions about using setting specific game mechanics out of the Reach would be helpful if they contain more elaborate information than the ones which tried to introduce Grey Knights into DW. To safe space free PDFs would be a better choice as they could contain much more information, even altered rules, and on top of that they would promote the books even more, because everyone likes getting stuff for free but if he can't use it without the real books, he will probably buy them too.

1-4 Nothing should be repeated at all! Even Nathan shares this attitude - but only when it comes to crunch, because asked why the Wolf Scout is using normal Scout Armor instead of the DW-Scout-Armor he explained that otherwise he had to include the complete stats for it because DW-Scout-Armor wasn't in the Corebook. A reasonable argument, but this should also count for fluff.

1-5 There should've definitely be some white space in the Jericho Reach all along, but it's not to late to change this. An area of the big unknown where every GM can build his own Reach without any fear that some supplement will kill his epic crusade. I don't see what speaks against this, even the Koronus Expanse is mostly white space. And white space should not be about physical space only but the politics behind the Achillus Crusade shouldn't be too detailed as well so a GM can bring his own Lord Generals and their aggendas into play.

Atma01 said:

1-2 I always want a mix. I don't want the background for something to be in one book, and then the game rules for it to be in another. Rules only books are going to be very dry, and background only books are going to be of very limited interest. Good background I find interesting and inspiring (and then I will want the relevant rules to use it), while as if the background is a bit on the weaker side at least I have got mechanical things to use out of it. I am not even sure why anyone would expect this, excepting a core rulebook (I have to say I have not really read that much of the fluff section of the Deathwatch Rulebook... but all the supplements are different).

1-3 I don't feel limited to fiddling around with things myself, so I don't feel limited by the range of books. However, I am more unsure of how to do some things than others so that doesn't mean I wouldn't like them to be produced by a more professional designer (or at least similar things which I can then extrapolate from). The problem with that of course is that I will inevitably disagree with that particular interpretation and gripe about it instead.

1-4 Overlap: Not at all keen. In fact, as I collect all the 40k RPG line I am generally not keen on overlap between the various lines. I know this is inevitable, as they are designed as separate lines, and I am quite glad they have regardless avoided too much overlap. On the other hand I know there have been complaints by those that don't about the lack of certain items which are in other series, and personally I don't feel the two earlier lines (Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader) are actually compatible with the other two (and I am not convinced that the later two are fully compatible with one another). Within a line I am not keen with at all, and the Achilus Assault is a book I really struggle to see the point of. Now, I am not massively keen on the Jericho Reach setting myself (though I accept that is a personal taste), and I am not saying the writing in the book is bad, but I really struggle to see what it provides that couldn't have been presented in a more compact form in The Jericho Reach. It is also a book I can't think of a counterpart in the other lines. Every series so far has had the "three adventures in one book", an Inquisitor's Handbook a-like (Into the Storm and Rites of Battle... ok, Black Crusade hasn't got one yet and might not ever, but it is very new), and a "setting book" (Disciples of the Dark Gods, still my favourite book in the entire 40k line, the one with planets in rogue Trader, and now Jericho Reach). The Achilus Assault... doesn't seem to have an equivalent as a second "setting book", without any particular focus (unlike the Dark Heresy "career" books, or First Founding etc).

1-5 I don't think anyone can legitimately complain about this. If you choose to use the setting, then obviously there is a chance that officially produced stuff with contradict your own adventures. If they deliberately went out to avoid this, they would have to stick to such generalities that the background would be dull and undeveloped. The obvious answer is to ignore those parts of the background that don't fit with your game. The background is meant to be there as an inspiration. No one is holding anyone to using the official background. Even if you do, there is no way the game is going to be "compatible" with another player groups game, as even if you use the same basis, often they will develop it differently or have entirely different interpretations of the setting (the most obvious divide being "Space Marines are uber" and "Space Marines are only very tough").

Kain McDogal said:

I can only presume that you had some experience with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader before Deathwatch's release, and that DW wasn't your first foray into the 40K RPG lines, yes? Given that those two games have focused on their own settings, what about Deathwatch gave you a different impression? What about Deathwatch made you think it was a 'universal' game when the other two were not, especially when the DW core rulebook contains so much information about the Jericho Reach?

I would have honestly been more surprised if the DW corerulebook hadn't covered a specific setting and if subsequent supplements had covered random areas and locations. Sticking to a specific setting wasn't just expected but actually the norm given that's exactly what every book from the other two games has done. You don't have to like it of course, and you don't have to use it (we don't use Calixis, making a lot of DH things useless or something we have to adapt), but I think it quite naive to have approached DW thinking it would be different to other two. Doubly so given the fact that they previewed the Reach before the rulebook even came out... just like they did with the Screaming Vortex.

There's a pattern to these things.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

It does sound like you aren't looking for any compromise at all, but as I have mentioned before why should you even consider to find one, because everything works fine for you.

But this is not the everything-should-stay-the-same- but a general feedback thread.

Fact is there are people out there who aren't happy with adventuring in the Jericho Reach alone, especially when they have to leave some game mechanics behind because they doesn't work outside of a specific Salient. Your advice to those is simply "Go and find another game!". If I get Atma01 right he wants to find a compromise, but all you have written here shows you aren't interested in one, so why even participate in this thread? Don't get me wrong, I don't ask you to leave, but shouldn't be your comments a little more constructive then?

Why did you quote my post when you doesn't answer to anything I've written in it, starting your old mantra instead? By the way is it NAIVE to ask why a DW-SM can take the Hatred(Eldar) Talent when there are no Eldar in the Reach and the game was not intended to play outside of this setting?

Kain McDogal said:

As I recall, the Core Rulebook also stresses, that the GM should feel free to alter the Reach to his biding, even some books hint that it's not out of the question to introduce DW Chars into RT or DH. I see such talents as encouragements for GMs. Now he can bring his Hatred (Eldar) talent to full frution. Also with the talent already in place, you might also feel encouraged into creating your own iconic foes (Hey let's swap out the TAU forces for the ELDAR, it's up to you!) instead of taking it directly out of the book. However I don't speak for H.B.M.C., this is my little assumption of these things.

Kain McDogal said:

What about the rules in The Jericho Reach stop you from using them outside in a certain salient? You’re talking about the Solo/ Squad Modes maybe, the one’s specific to Tau/Chaos/’Nids? What about them needs to be tied to a salient? Tied to a specific race, yes, but a salient? What exactly is stopping you from using the anti-Tau Solo/Squad Modes in a homebrew campaign set during the 3rd Sphere Expansion that happened during the 13th Black Crusade? What’s stopping you from using the anti-Chaos stuff on the opposite side of the galaxy in a bunch of special scenarios? How come you can’t use the anti-Tyranid rules in a replay of the battle for Ichar IV? What about these rules force you to bring the Jericho Reach with them?

My advice isn’t “go find another game”. My advice is “do whatever you want to – why are you letting the setting hold you back?”. From my perspective you are being far to rigid. As I’ve stated on several occasions, and even in my last post, we don’t used the Calixis Sector in our Dark Heresy campaign. We have our own homebrew setting, a completely different sector on the other side of the galaxy. It involves Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar and half a dozen other things not native to the Calixis Sector (in any real capacity). There are loads of Calixis-specific things that I’ve ignored or adapted, like the Templar Calix career that the psyker in our group has... we just changed the name!

And how can one be constructive when everything you appear to be saying is predicated on what I perceive to be a false dilemma (and wildly inaccurate views on how the books are written)?

BYE

I do have to bring this back up.

Someone (I don't recall who or I would give proper credit) asked about the printing and giving costs to the skills that space marines already start with in the advancement tables. It is explained (somewhere, I don't recall specifics) that it is in case someone plays a character type that didn't start with them for free, yet as of now I haven't seen anything that falls under that category, or any mentions of anything that might.

I just find that odd, I don't mean to be off point on this, but it seemed like a good place to bring it up.

Tempest: my assumption is that the powers-that-be had an idea, then changed it at the last minute...but that's only me makin' an ass of meself, so I ain't sure....

And, wow; are we really debating a 'false dilemma' here? I'm soo glad i'm on the 'false', 'wildly innaccurate' side, i really feel like i'm being heard....thanx for that!

I don't think for one minute that any of us on the 'wild' side are letting the setting hold them back - they are feeling cheated, because, in order to support their galaxy-spanning games with official rules, they feel pressured to buy into the setting.

It's been mentioned that the other 2 games have emphasized their settings at the expense of generality....I would not necessarily agree 100%...If I recall correctly, my impressions of the rt/dh lines were positive....there ARE setting books, with (setting-specific) rules in them [i am fine with this]...there ARE general fluff books with little crunch, little setting specifics [i am fine with this too]...there ARE crunch books with, perhaps, some setting material, but by on large generally useful information/rules [and I am clearly VERY fine with this]....with the previous lines, I was (largely) able to purchase all the general rules information I need (i.e. all of it!); and was (largely) able to avoid the specific setting/fluff if I so chose.

But, to my great alarm, trends do seem to point to a conflation of setting and rules, in the interest of maximizing profits.

But it occurs to me that this may be beside the point....as we are still debating the efficacy of the game beyond its purported exclusive Jericho setting....

Soo, let's examine how I was enticed to buy this space marine/jericho reach game....

well, I read the cover. Yup, that's it. So we'll limit our current analysis to the cover. Deep breath, now...

First thing I saw was a black bookspine with the warhammer 40,000 logo right on top. Right on top. Under that: Deathwatch. "Ho ho!" i thought, "Here's a book - a roleplaying book! - set in the 40k universe, involving the fabled Deathwatch of White Dwarf lore.....Ingenious!" i continued to think, "They've picked-up on the most convenient way to mix'n match different space marines into one small unit, perfect for roleplaying throughout the Imperium of Man!" Well, my curiousity was understandably piqued....So I asked to see the black book...and lo! There, on the cover, in all their glory: SPACE MARINES. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH-HELL'S YES!!!! Finally! After 25 years and two personal versions, a sanctioned rpg product. With pictures! Still not completely convinced, however, I flipped the book over and read the blurb on the back....it mentioned epic fighting against aliens, and space marines, and roleplaying in the grimdarkness of 40k....but no mention of any Jericho Reach....not at all....just a snippet about a Crusade; but, in the context of the back-cover blurb, said 'crusade' could only refer to the deathwatch crusade against all xenos...

"Well well," thought I, "here we have a space marine roleplaying game!" Since that's what I want, and since that's what is advertised on the cover of the book, that is what I bought. Or, perhaps, if I'm wrong, that is what I thought i bought...

And, again, I should say, I don't hate Jericho; I like jericho; i was gonna buy it had it come out anytime in the first 4 months of release....but it didn't, and my players weren't about to wait a year and a half.....they saw places on the map like Hector's Endeavour and Themiskon Point and said: "Whoa! I bet there's somethin' cool goin' on there! Let's kill it!" And so, off we went adventurin', plundering and taming all the marked worlds of the jericho maps that had cool/inspiring names...Soooo, we now have our own Jericho, which is fine, except it is not compatible with the 'official' version, which bugs me, but isn't a gamebreaker.

And I seem to have lost focus, so I'll leave things for now....cheers from the wild side, gentlemen!

Wow guys I wasn't expecting this much that quickly! Thank you! But it is a lot to take in all at once. So I just popped in to thank you all, and let you know I intend to try and do another proper collation and update on the weekend with what has been offered up so far. And see if there is anything else I can contribute myself.

I would like to remind everyone at this point, and I mean EVERYONE (no exceptions, not even for the God-Emperor), that this isn't intended to be a thread to go at each other's throats again. I don't feel that it has devolved to that point yet, and I really hope it doesn't since I believe I am seeing some good stuff here. So as always please keep it civil .

I can sense some hostility in the tone of some of the posts, and I would please ask that we all re-read our contributions before posting and ask 'Will this be taken as an attack, or contribution of honest intent?'. Fingers do not need to be pointed yet, but I will politely ask those who take it too far to leave. I don't want to do that as some of the back and forth is contributing and brings something to the table, however I would like it to be a discussion and not an argument.

Besides that this is forming up exactly like I wanted it. And please keep it coming. Bonus XP for all!

Stay classy bros.

Atma01

(Finally off to play some Borderlands)

Zappiel said:

Like Rites of Battle and First Founding?

Name one DH book that is not setting specific. They all are. You can pretend they are unspecific and use them in your own setting, no problem. But then, you can do that with Deathwatch as well.

And what do you mean by "general rules information I need"? You don't need any of this to play DW, least of all do you need the setting specific crunch. It's a nice-to-have. And of course you can use it if you like, it's your game after all. Source books are not the goddamn Constitution! You take this whole canon/official business much too seriously.

You do not make sense, Zappiel. Most of the time you just complain about problems that aren't there. Which makes it very hard to take you opinion seriously.

Dok Martin said:

Of course there are no problems for people who have got what they want with the last publications, but the pure fact that some people doesn't see it this way and got their issues on how the things are running latley proofs otherwise.

So we should work all together and listen to problems (imagined or not) and try to make up some soulutions both sides could live with, and I personaly find Atma01's suggenstions to be worthy a second look. Even if we find some compromises this does not mean FFG will listen to them but it's worth a try. And if you followed the discussions most of the suggestions wouldn't influence the overall canon at all. Jericho Reach would still be the primary setting, hopefully with some white space incl. politics, and additional rules would be published as PDFs, it's the best of both worlds and would only take a little more effort from the designers.

While we are speaking of problems I hope FFG will make a desicion soon whether the old weapon stats are the officila ones or the up to now optional stats from the errata. Nearly every adversary and NPC uses the old stats but new weapons for SMs are modeled after the optionalones. It would be nice if there is a clear line in the future and an additional errata which would fix the adversaries and NPCs weapon stats which aren't covered in the last.

Kain, I'm right there with you on the weapon stats issue. Its very strange to say the least.

And as for the white space thing, I think No_1 has pointed this out a few times, but whether or not it was said clearly I guess is up in the air a bit; the Jericho has a lot of while space already (though I guess it would do well to be pointed out in a book somewhere) because the maps in the books are of maybe 1/100th of all the actual planets in the Reach. So you've got wiggle room if you like the idea that's going on in one of the Salients but you don't see a setup for the exact mission you want to run well just make up a name, pick a spot on the map, and create your story. Or if you are feeling tricksy pick a spot between two of the Salients and drop some real real madness in there, or if you want to include some of the off-the-beaten-path stuff go to the far North or South of the map and maybe put in that forgotten Exodite world you've been itching to use. It's all there for you to play with, but it isn't ever officially stated, which it should be.

TempestSatori said:

I don't understand this. This is a pen and paper RPG, shouldn't the players and GM's be imaginative enough to know this already and not need to have their hands held?

Changing names and places should be easy for anyone who has run a campaign. If official background for a specific location comes out after you have had a memorable adventure using that name, just change the names in the new information or adapt the new oficial info into what you have done.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Hallelujah, mate.

Wow...I seem to have been called out...and after that nice warning post by the OP....hmmmmm.....whatever should I do...and it seems kinda funny that the guy y'all complained about (that'd be Kain) is so far the one tryin' the hardest to be nice.....

Sooo, Dok, buddy, pal: are you ready? Now, I'm gonna name ONLY ONE dh book that is not setting specific...there are others, man, so please open yer eyes a little wider when you read them - thanx! Here it comes.............Ascension. There you go. You are welcome. Glad I could help. Ascension can be used in any 40k setting you please since setting-specific material is minimal, to say the least. Now, I have MORE to say to you, Dok ol' man, but I'll step back and let the OP handle you.....

....except to answer yer other question about 'general rules info I need' : if there are any rules that add to the corebook rules (that are NOT setting-specific), then I consider those rules to be 'general rules info I need.' I can pass on setting-specific rules if i so choose....but, if I want a complete rules set for my personal game, then I need the errata, Rites of Battle, and First Founding (so far...). (Oh, and maybe the gm's booklet, perhaps, maybe....there were one or two interesting tidbits of rules in there mayhap perchance.)

Tempest: i'm with you 'n Kain there...almost a year since errata, and no word.....lottsa adventures released, and stats, but no word.......No1 is a rules-person, anything you can tell us as to why there has been no official pronouncement as of yet?

And, just to sum up, we're not only 'false', and 'wildly innaccurate', but now we're also 'unimaginative', eh? Oh, how very nice! When are we on the 'wild side' allowed to devolve to personal attack???? Can I get a 'hallelujah'?

Zappiel said:

Your sense of drama is an inspiration to everyone here.

And no, it's not. Many but not all chapters in Ascension are tied to the background, most obviously the Adversaries section and the adventure.

Just for the sake of full disclosure, my previous post was a clarification. Kain seemed to be of the mind that anything not specifically mentioned or noted in the setting didn't exist there, and I wanted to point out that the white space does actually already exist, and then because I doubt Kain was the only person who read the books that way I made a suggestion that it should perhaps be stated explicitly somewhere in the rules.

Oh and I also agreed with him on the inconsistency of the weapons tables, which still vex me.

Zappiel said:

It's not a decision I'm involved in. Rule of thumb, unless it's directly relevant to a book I've been contracted to work on, I have no influence over or insight into any development matters. In essence, I only work for FFG when I'm contracted to work on a book, for the specific purpose of working on that book, and once that contract has been fulfilled (that is, I've written my manuscript, and FFG have paid me and sent me a copy of the book some months after it hits the shelves), then it ceases to be anything to do with me in any official capacity.

To go back to a point Kain raised regarding repetition of material... he seems to have gotten the wrong end of the stick. It isn't that repetition is frowned upon (though it is avoided where possible), but rather that every supplement is intended to function with only the rulebook. No person should be expected to pick up another sourcebook just to use the one they've just bought. Where necessary, material from supplements is repeated to avoid this (a good example of this is the Sorcery rules in both Disciples of the Dark Gods and the Radical's Handbook - the basic rules are presented twice so that people don't need to own both books), but just as often, references to other supplements are avoided entirely. Only as a matter of last resort is a brief "for more information, see sourcebook X " used, because it goes against the basic notion of "the only book you need to use this supplement is the appropriate rulebook".

Zappiel said:

Erm... I can't think of any RT and DH which are almost entirely "background" or almost entirely "crunch". OK, maybe the Inquisitor's Handbook is largely crunch (as it is mostly a big book of stuff), but even then that "crunch" is all tied to the background (for example, there are various guns which have pretty much identical stats but were listed separately because they were special for background reasons). Sure you can ignore it, but it is there. Disciples of the Dark Gods... Background, largely, but with rules elements, such as the stats for the various foes presented, odds and ends (Halo Devices) and the first presentation of the sorcery rules (which is entirely setting independent). The Creature's Anathema has various things that can be used independent of the setting, but most of it is tied to the setting. I just cannot think of any that isn't tied to the Calixis sector background wise, not that you can't use them outside it. Now, I personally like the Calixis sector, but I don't like some of the presentation of the more recent stuff, so I would ignore it in "my" Calixis sector (namely the "Books!?! RAGE!" Arbitrators and the religious war hinted at in Blood of Martyrs and then launched in the new adventures). Rogue Trader?

How is "your" Jericho Reach not compatible with the "official" one? Obviously at some point you are going to inevitably come to some sort of conflict with the "official" story, but most of the information is not intrinsically tied to the story FFG have provided. You can use the planets with total freedom, even if you are not using the Jericho Reach (though most of them are limited to being in a warzone, due to the various battles being fought over them. All the enemies can be freely used anywhere, Jericho Reach or not. Ok, the DW line so far has only provided Tau, Tyranids, Chaos, Orks, and a tiny smattering of Necrons, so you may be in a little of a pickle if you want to use Eldar (about the only major 40k race absent from Deathwatch), or Necrons in a major way. However, otherwise you have been provided with a wealth of stuff for those factions. Ok, the Chaos ones are specifically Stigmartus, but they can be transported out of their setting, or just used as something else, and as far as Space Marines are concerned how different are one lot of weedy chaos cultists any different from any other individual chaos cultist?