Changes to Sardak Norr and Letnev

By Lowlarh, in Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

I was inspired by abilities of Jol'Nar and Xxcha , where they receive additional benefits when playing SC secondaries linked to their themes.
Here are some changes to other races who can share that concept.


Sardak Norr – when executing Warfare secondary you may put Raid Token in a system instead. Raid Token follows all rules of High Alert token but affects only cruisers and destroyers.
I think this ability fits them thematicaly, and it gives them some power they lack. With posibility of small scale attacks from large distances, Sardak Norr would force opponents to expand carefully, always protecting carriers and planets. With stasis capsules they could prey on unguarded planets 3 systems away every round.

Letnev – When executing Production secondary you may pay additional 2 resource to play primary instead. (This ability is instad of spend 2TG for combat bonus)
This abitiliy fits them thematicaly and is more interesting than old. After all they are industrial, mass mobilization race.

Are these abilities unbalanced?

Lowlarh said:

I was inspired by abilities of Jol'Nar and Xxcha , where they receive additional benefits when playing SC secondaries linked to their themes.
Here are some changes to other races who can share that concept.


Sardak Norr – when executing Warfare secondary you may put Raid Token in a system instead. Raid Token follows all rules of High Alert token but affects only cruisers and destroyers.
I think this ability fits them thematicaly, and it gives them some power they lack. With posibility of small scale attacks from large distances, Sardak Norr would force opponents to expand carefully, always protecting carriers and planets. With stasis capsules they could prey on unguarded planets 3 systems away every round.

Letnev – When executing Production secondary you may pay additional 2 resource to play primary instead. (This ability is instad of spend 2TG for combat bonus)
This abitiliy fits them thematicaly and is more interesting than old. After all they are industrial, mass mobilization race.

Are these abilities unbalanced?

Its tough to say, I think you would really have to take it for a few test spins. But on paper I think the Sardak Norr ability looks ok, still not sure if its actually sufficient to help them a whole lot. I mean Sardak Norr are notoriously short on command counters and units in the early game and this ability just makes them potentially more aggressive and gives even more reason for players to take them out early. I think coupled with slightly improved starting conditions and they would be ok, what they really need is a better start.

As for the Letnev, i think instead of 2 resources, it should remain 2TG (not sure if you intended to change the wording), but if you do it as 2 resources than its automatic for them to have primary production every round from the first round to the last without a problem, but with TG's or command counters it makes it a bit more of a consideration. But I think the ability is pretty balanced, though i think it will catapult the Letnev into a higher tier in terms of racial strength in particular if its 2 resources instead of 2 TG's.

I think the sardakk ability isn't bad, but it doesn't really help them much. As the other guy said, It's most likely effect would be for otehrs to attack them early on. Moreover, unless you're in a 4 or 8 player game, warfare is among the least picked strategy cards, so they wouldn't have much chance to use it. My suggestions would be as follows for them

1. Warfare has a very distinct "warning" ability, if someone plays it then players are immediately on their guard for the attack that's about to happen. Thematically, would a warrior race be so sloppy as to give warning like this? So my suggestion: When playing the primary ability of Warfare, the Sardak N'orr may immediately make a tactical action with the fleet nominated. In the case of the original warfare, they'd be able to make a double move, in the case of warfare II they'd be able to make their attack immediately. I would suggest, however, that this tactical action takes palce after all secondaries have been resolved, so people could feasibly use the secondary to move a few ships to assist, but it wouldn't be like a full blown activation that would move a massive fleet in the way of their invasion.

2. Alternatively, to mitigate the fact that they are notoriously short on command counters, when making a tactical action executed by a fleet with the high alert token, the N'orr player would be permitted to use a command counter from reserves rather than from command.

As far as your letnev suggestion...I agree that it would have to be TG, otherwise the two resources from primary cancels out what they're paying. Maybe that's the intention, to allow them to use the secondary without a build limit of 3, but that in itself could be dangerous: The reason they put the build limit is to stop people from having an exploding fighter or GF popluation unless they have the production card itself, and since they have the highest HS production limit along with the Hacan (12 with sarween tools) this is something that could get out of hand VERY quickly if they were allowed to build like that every single turn, especially since the production primary and secondary dont' activate the HS. Think about it, paying 11 resources (1 less than a warsun) and suddenly you have a fleet of two carriers loaded with a mix of GF and fighters totalling 10. Every round? Not balanced.

Sardak Norr does not have to use this every but even possibility of their raids will keep their player on their toes. It is true they will get more attention than opponents but I am not sure that extra attention will hurt them that much. With hylar, their racial and this token destroyers will hit on 6 and cruisers on 4 ( like lizix dreadnought) Because of this opponent will need much stronger fleet. And with movement 3 sardakk norr can easily punish invader by invading their homeworld - stasis capsules would be useful here.

Their fleet is week in numbers but now it can compensate that with supreme mobility and attack rolls. Also cruisers and destroyers are really cheap ships. Just with their home system they can build 4 destroyers that hit on 6 and have AFB.

Idea with counters from reinforcements seems good, but i am sure my group will then complain it is to strong. But should be nice to try it.

Idea with enchanced us of primary warfare also seem nice.

As for the Letnev, I admit I gave them to much power. This is powerful ability and should be restricted. So 2 TG is a step in right direction,or even 3 or 4TG . I am sure that now their trade agreements will be even more unnatractive. Their neighbors will have tough decision: bribe letnev knowing that they will grow strong with this money, or not trade with them and be target of their blitzkrieg

Or maybe i should nerf it this way:

"When playing Production secondary you may pay X TG. You then may build 2X additional units"

In our group we already call them Space Nazi's, and this ability brings them even closer to the original ones. Powerful war industry that everyone is afraid to attack but will be to strong later if left to grow.

For Sardak Norr, change it too:

when doing Warfare primary or secondary, Norr can move up to 2 pds from his homeworld to any of his planets or 1 pds from any of his planets to any other of his planets ..

Sardak Norr is into the pds creep strategy.

Being able to freely move pds around would stop a lone carrier or crusier from moving into his area.

It would also help Norr out if he is going to attack another fleet that he is evenly matched up with.

Letnev is already very strong. I would keep them the way they are but add

Letnev gains +1 trade good if they Invade 1 planet with at least 1 ground troop and win the battle.

So Letnev will get his trade goods the easy way or the hard way ; Letnev's opponents can choose how they want to pay. demonio.gif


Shadow, your changes may be good , but they are completely diferent than mine. Both paths are valid, ofcourse, but they are different thematically. For sardak norr you prefer pds and I small ships ( I was even thinking about replacing their starting pds with cruiser or 2x destroyer). For letnev you gave them nice extortion ability but i wanna focus on their production.

Speaking of Letnev for now i would made them this way:

-When playing Production secondary you may pay X TG. You then may build 2X additional units

- they keep their old ability of spending 2TG for combat bonus.

I think new production ability is much weaker now, and that there is no way they can build fighter swarms with it. I think leaving them their old ability is justified, because they are really restricted with TG ( even more in our group, where we dont allow discarding political cards for TG). They would have to choose extra ships or combat bonus because they are really short on money.

They are more versatile now, but TG is even more issue than before. With new ability it will probably be harder for them to get trade agrements.

Just out of curiousity, what weakness or flaw do you see with the Letnev that brought you to adjusting them? Or are you just adjusting them for fun?

Generally speaking the races that are usually adjusted are the Sardek N'orr, Xxcha and Ysaril Tribes. Sometimes I see adjustments to the Mentak as well. But its rare to see races like the Letnev adjusted which I think are pretty in line with the games overall balance, so I was just curious as to what aspect of that race gives you the impression they should be stronger?

We play random races, and only if we got Letnev they can be repicked ( And they almost always are repicked because my group think they are to boring to play). So yes, it is adjustment mostly for fun.
Our metagame is all about politics,diplomacy, persuasion, and mind tricks. Agressive races are very often focused, so people dont like to play them. I am not sure why, but everyone seems to avoid playing Letnev,although they are not the only aggresive race.
I am curios how Xxcha are usualy adjusted. In our games they usually do very well compared to other races, but for some strange reason this seems not to be an issue. They are peacefull, and usualy not harrased to much in game...people are more afraid from attacks than opponents scoring Victory Points.