Hello,

This is very interesting stuff, but I think I would have begin somewhere else... Where it all begins...
I don't know Tolkien universe very well and before you mention terms like "valar" "maiar" "undying lands" etc, it would have been great to have a chapter dedicated to the mythology/cosmology of Tolkien's world.

Who was there first ? Who created what ? What are undying land ? Who is master of who ?

I only have read the LOTR trilogy, so, I think I miss a lot of stuff to very well understand what you are saying...

Maybe, if you don't want to write it (I can understand...) you could redirect me to a site which would have such an article (reliable...).

Thank you !

hi Shiv@n

of course, i understand what you are saying, and it is something i intend to touch on at some point, but seeing as youve asked

In the beginning there was only Eru Iuvatar, the one, the creator, and he created through 'music' the Ainur.

Ainur were immortal spirits which included the Valar and their lesser counterparts, the Maiar.

The Ainur who chose to go to the world and shape it were known as the Valar, and were lesser god like beings who were responsible for the world's (called Arda) material creation. There were 14- 7 male and 7 female, and each had thier own area of specialily such as water, craftmanship, forests, flowers, winds etc, much like norse gods for instance. Their king of the Valar was Manwe.

Melkor, the original dark lord was also a Vala, and Manwe's brother, but is not considered one for his later actions of destruction.

Depite the Valar's abilty to shape the earth, they could not create life- elves and men were created by Eru himself, and the dwarves, which were created by the vala, Aule, were only given life after Eru approved them.

The servants of the Valar were the Maiar. Noteable ones are Gandalf, who was servnt of Manwe, Saruman and Sauron, who were both servants of Aule, the balrogs who were the soldiers and servants of Melkor (later known as Morgoth).

The undying lands were the home of the Valar, and the destination of the elves when they 'sailed west'. Those who were not immortal ie elves and maiar, were forbidden to sail there. However when the island of Numenor was raised, inbetween middle earth and the undying lands, in reward for the men who helped defeat Melkor, they were specifically told not to sail so far west as to lose sight of the mainland.

After the numenoreans sailed east and defeated and imprisoned sauron, he eventually corrupted their leader Ar-Phrazon, and told him that if he sailed to the undying lands, he would gain immortality- which was false anyways. As soon as the numenoreans set foot upon it, the valar called upon Eru, who destroyed them, made the flat earth globular, and sunk the island of numenor. The undying lands were forever separated from the earth, and could not be reached again be ordinary sea travel.

After this the 'good' numenoreans left, led by Elendil and his sons isuldur and anarion, went to middle earth and created the realms of Gondor in the south and Arnor in the north. The Dunedain were the true blood decendants of the these, and Aragorn being Isildur's heir, had the blood of Numenor in him.

hope this helps

i would recommend for further reading the Silmarillion, which though not anything like the trilogy or the hobbit, is a great source for this type of information, and one which i find fascinating, if a little difficult to grasp first time round

rich

Hi Rich. I posted my ideas about Tom Bombadil over on BGG last December. I registered here so I could share them with you. I was responding to someone asking if Tom Bombadil was evil.

Tolkien created a mythology. The Valar are the gods in this mythology.

As explained in Edward Harrison's Masks of the Universe: Changing Ideas on the Nature of the Cosmos, (and elsewhere) magical realities predate mythic realities. For example, the magical realities of the Celts and the Druids were overrun by the mythical reality of the Romans after the Romans conquered the British Isles.

Tom Bombadil, the Woses, and even the Ents, represent the last remnants of magical realities that predate the mythic reality created by Tolkien. Just as adding imperfections such as textures and dirt can make computer generated effects appear much more realistic, these traces of former magical realities in Tolkien's work make the mythological world he creates much more realistic.

One of the primary ways mythical realities supersede magical realities is by making the magical reality seem dangerous and evil. You can think of burning witches at the stake as an example of this. So it is not surprising the author of the article that was linked to could find many hints of darkness and evil in Tom Bombadil. But it is extremely unlikely there would be a return to a magical reality. The book, The Lord of the Rings, chronicled the end of the Third Age, the end of the mythological reality where the Valar are gods. It ushered in the age of men and all indications are that this new age is closer to the "scientific" reality we find ourselves in today. The things that happened during the mythical age (and before) will eventually be seen as mere stories since they won't fit in with the current reality of the day just like Tom Bombadil doesn't fit in with the mythological reality created by Tolkien.

In other words, the incongruities of Tom Bombadil are an almost essential part of Tolkien's masterpiece. These incongruities and inconsistencies make the world Tolkien created much more realistic.

richsabre said:

I think Unfinished Tales can be a good introduction to the Silmarillion. It contains stories from the first, second and third ages. Here are the parts that deal with what happened in the Lord of the Rings:

Part Three: The Third Age:

• "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields"
• "Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan"
• "The Quest of Erebor"
• "The Hunt for the Ring"
• "The Battles of the Fords of Isen"

Part Four

• "The Drúedain"
• "The Istari"
• "The Palantíri"

hi bitjam

thanks for sharing that, it was certainly an interesting read, and you may be interested to pop by next week to read chapter 3, which among other things, touches on mythological factors in middle earth.

as for the unfinished tales, i have read it, but quite a while ago, and unfortunalty no longer have a copy, which went walk-about with my histories of middle earth, but it is fascinating, all the more so that they were tolkiens raw ideas pretty much left as they are

Darthvegeta800 said:

Yes, it was Ungoliant, the ancestor of Shelob. There is a sentence which states something about the Balrogs flying with great speed. It is not definitive though. Gandalf also urges the fools of the Fellowship to fly before he drops to the abbys and in flight fights the Balrog of Moria.

Of the four mysteries, I find the Balrog topic least interesting. I kinda care not whether they have wings or not. I think visually the Movie version worked well.

As for Radagast, it is interesting he is never mentioned again after the Council of Elrond. It is perhaps due to Tolkien's style. He did many things a professional writer would never dare do - and it worked. I liked the character but (as the professor himself perhaps) forgot about him along the way during the story. I would love to know now but unless Christopher digs out more stuff it is unlikely to be perfectly clear.

Finally, I would think Tom Bombadil should under no category. It seems correct to me that there is no other of his kind. And then, if he is not Eru himself, he should perhaps be neither a Vala or Maia. It is true Ulmo lived by in the ocean without being much noticed (I guess) but Tom does not fit the description of Aule - he was the Smith who created the Dwarves and not one caring too much about nature, as was his wife Yavanna.

I'm with lleimmoen regarding Tom Bombadil. I don't think him being Aulë. As the creator of Dwarves, it doesn't make much sense to me that being in Endor watching first hand what happens there, he should have chosen another place to live but the Old Forest, which allows him rare contact with his creations.

still.....the valar couldnt put much into the 3rd age- hence the istari- things had changed, and if he is aule (which i agree there are still far too many flaws in this theory) then it would explain gandalf going to 'report' back to him after saurons downfall- though of course gandalf was the servant of manwe- not aule

i still think that we cant really use the counter-argument of 'he doesnt resemble (insert vala here)'. i mean who exactly would that resemble?- who choses to be such as ridiculous character unlesss its purely for diguise? i dont think that Tom as we saw him was anything like the real Tom if he 'uncovered' himself.

i think its the same thing with gandalf appearing as an old man in one place, and appearing as a powerful wizard whilst battling the balrog. however we cant really ever see tom uncovered as he cant fight evil directly, apart from in his own 'bounds' with old man willow and the barrow wights

That was great rich, thank you for writing!

I have always wondered about the nature of magical power in Tolkien's universe. We occasionally get a raw display of power -- a blinding flash of light, a crack of lightning, a conjured storm. Most of the time, however, power seems subtle and hidden. It's been awhile since I've read the books, but from memory, there is no grand display of power when Gandalf confronts the Balrog. The Balrog is defeated through cunning trickery -- Gandalf strikes not at the demon, but at the bridge.

I remember really enjoying the film where trolls burst through the gates of Minas Tirith. Gandalf downs a troll with a single strike from his cane, and it is neither noted by any characters, dwelt upon (it is brief and easy to miss), or even especially highlighted by the cinematography (the focus of this scene is not "the death of a troll" or "the power of Gandalf").

This brings me to Tom. I don't know that I like the theories of Tom as either Valar or Maiar, but it does not strike me as incongruent to say that Sauron could defeat Tom. It would be done through strength of armies and not the might of Sauron alone. The implication is that Tom would be the last thing standing in all of Middle Earth, I think, but he too would not be able to, alone, withstand the might of Mordor. Tom has no army (nor interest in any). The question is: how does magical power work? Would Tom really be able to wave his hand and eradicate an army? If so, then any theory that Tom (a Valar) could be defeated by Sauron would fall apart. If power is more subtle than that, the theory seems less challenged.

Tom was successful in preventing the Witch-king's army from entering the area after Angmar had defeated Cardolan. It is not certain that it was the intention of the Witch-king's army to enter the woods but it would perhaps be right to assume that the intention was to eradicate the surviving Dúnedain that took hiding in the Old Forest under Tom Bombadil's protection.

thank you grandspleen

i think another point is that if sauron had won the war and his armies taken over the earth, i do not think tom would have even tried to fend off the orcs if/ when they came to the old forest. there would have been nothing left for him in middle earth to fight for (in a grander sense), so i think he would have departed back to the undying lands, if indeed that is where he came from.