Hi,

Ive tried scouring the forums for these answers but couldnt find any so here is a new topic. these few questions popped up after my first few games with the core set last night. (2 player)

1 - does Khal Drogo go back to your hand at the end of the phase even if he was killed or discarded during that phase?

2- When kneeling a character to participate in a challenge do all their attachments kneel too? (some confusion came when using Lightbringer)

3 - is a character killed if it ever reaches 0 STR. or are they just at 0 STR?

4 - Are the traits Lord and Lady effectivly the same? for eg. Save a lord character from being killed. would this effect save a lady? I'm of the oppinion that they are different but a friend thinks the cards are not sexist

i think thats all the questions - im sure more will arise when I try 3/4 players.

really enjoying it so far - reminds me of the Dune CCG I used to play a few years back.

Cheers.

Odesai said:

1. Hmmm, I had always treated this as a no - but comparing his text ("Response: After you win a challenge, put Khal Drogo into play from your hand. At the end of the phase, return Khal Drogo to his owner's hand) to Catelyn Stark's (LOW) ("Challenges: Put Catelyn Stark into play from your hand, knelt as a defender during an Intrigue or Power challenge initiated against you. At the end of the phase, if Catelyn Stark is still in play, return her to your hand) - it makes me wonder as well. His response is triggered while he is in play, and the return effect would seem to have the ability to bring him back from the grave. However, there is a general ruling when resolving questions like this - you can't do something just because the card doesn't disallow it, you can only do it if the card says you can do it. With that in mind, and ktom can chime in later, since his text doesn't specifiy being able to return from the dead pile, I'd say that leaving play puts Khal Drogo beyond the reach of the effect to return him to your hand. At least I hope so, or I've been playing him al wrong.

2. Only the character kneels, attachments on said character remain standing until they are seperately knelt.

3. Even if their STR is reduced below 0 by an ability or effect, their STR is considered 0 for all intents and purposes. In and of itself, this will not kill a character, as there are characters whose printed STR is 0 and they don't die immediately upon being marshalled. However, particular effects - particularaly Targaryen, will kill a character if their STR is reduced to 0.

4. No Traits are considered equivalent to any others, so Lord and Lady are not the same. If a card was meant to protect both, both Traits would be listed on the card.

sabrefox said:

1. Hmmm, I had always treated this as a no - but comparing his text ("Response: After you win a challenge, put Khal Drogo into play from your hand. At the end of the phase, return Khal Drogo to his owner's hand) to Catelyn Stark's (LOW) ("Challenges: Put Catelyn Stark into play from your hand, knelt as a defender during an Intrigue or Power challenge initiated against you. At the end of the phase, if Catelyn Stark is still in play, return her to your hand) - it makes me wonder as well. His response is triggered while he is in play, and the return effect would seem to have the ability to bring him back from the grave. However, there is a general ruling when resolving questions like this - you can't do something just because the card doesn't disallow it, you can only do it if the card says you can do it. With that in mind, and ktom can chime in later, since his text doesn't specifiy being able to return from the dead pile, I'd say that leaving play puts Khal Drogo beyond the reach of the effect to return him to your hand. At least I hope so, or I've been playing him al wrong.

Catelyn is worded differently from Khal Drogo, including this clarification where Khal does not, because the question was asked so many times.

sabrefox said:

ktom said:

I thought that might be the case, as Khal's wording seems to be the exception to the rule now. Always good to have someone on the forums with such a historical knowledge of the evolution of the cards and the LCG format. You're a treasure, ktom.

Odesai, if your friend wants, he could get his hands on Old Nan, and use her ability to add the Lord Trait to a Lady. {chuckle} I actually did this one game so that Shaggydog would get the +3 STR boost, but it made my opponent and I laugh.

We once had two Robb starks chosen for the red wedding...

It's a lot funnier when Renly and The Knight of Flowers are chosen for Red Wedding.

ktom said:

Good lord, that is hilarious! And I'd have preferred it if it'd happened that way.

When a card leaves play, all lasting effects on it (like "gains +2 STR until the end of the phase" or "at the end of the phase, return this card to your hand") are scrubbed. All effects only work on cards in play unless otherwise specified.

Catelyn is worded differently from Khal Drogo, including this clarification where Khal does not, because the question was asked so many times.

Sorry for the thread revival; I figured this was better than starting a new one.

So I'm a brand new player being driven NUTS by having seen ktom post this in a few different threads on here. I have no doubt that he is correct, because he clearly almost always is, but I simply cannot find the rule in the rulebook or FAQ that actually states dispositively that any effect affecting a card disappears when the card goes to the discard pile.

I see a parenthetical reference on page 19 of the FAQ to card abilities (not quite the same thing) being lost when a card leaves the game and I see the "oh yeah, also" note at the end of 3.14 regarding the specific Khal Drogo (base) return-to-hand effect only applying if the card is still in play, but that's it.

I'm left thinking "if not for that note in 3.14, wouldn't the effect apply, since it's not an attachment or an ability or a gained ability (at least as I understand them) but a lasting effect, and I can't see anything about lasting effects being voided by leaving play?

The off-hand nature of the parenthetical on page 19 makes me think it's made in light of something more definitive elsewhere that I'm just not seeing. Please, somebody end my madness and direct me to a specific FAQ or rulebook citation (or tell me there isn't, in fact, such a citation, just official rulings not recorded in the public documents) regarding what happens to the printed elements of a card (title, effects, abilities, icons, strength numbers, etc.) when that card is out of play (or in the various out of play states, if this means different things).

(Side note: I love this game so far, but the disorganization of the rules and the non-specificity of the cards is making me nuts. I was reading a thread on here about Balon Swann in which ktom created an alternate wording that actually fully captured the intent, but explained that FFG wouldn't use such wording because it would be "confusing", and I was all "NO! Every card should read like his alternate wording!" Sure, extremely casual players might be slightly put off at denser, seemingly redundant verbiage, but anyone remotely interested in playing correctly would be OH! so much happier.)

In 3.14, it says "In general, card effects on non-event cards in a player's hand, deck, shadows area, discard pile, and dead pile are not considered to be actionable unless the card specifically states that it can be triggered while in its out-of-play state."

When you combine that with the "oh yeah, also" thing you mention at the end of the same entry, you conclude that the reverse of that statement (i.e., that effects cannot act on cards that are in an out-of-play state unless they specifically say so) is also true.

This is the closest that FFG has come in any official document to stating that "not actionable" is interpreted to mean both "cannot be initiated" and "cannot be affected," although it is a very consistent off-line ruling and clarification.

It's worth noting, by the way, that while the effect is a "lasting effect" of whatever created it, the actual "return to hand" has it's own (passive) initiation - "at the end of the phase" - meaning that it resolves as a separate passive effect, NOT as a delayed effect of whatever created the condition. So if this "return to hand" effect means "from anywhere," then something like Wildfire Assault ("All characters not chosen are killed") should also mean "from anywhere" -- and move all characters other than the 3 chosen in your deck, discard pile, hand, and Shadows area to the dead pile. Obviously, it doesn't because the plot's (passive, "when revealed") effect doesn't say it works on cards that are not in play, so it doesn't, right? That default "barrier" between in-play and out-of-play when an effect resolves is something you assume without thinking 99.9% of the time. (Which, I would guess, is why FFG hasn't bothered to write it down.)

Anyway, when you recognize the "return to hand" on Core-Khal Drogo for what it is -- a separate, one-time passive effect that is created by a the lasting effect of the Khal's Response -- it's easier to see why he won't be returned to hand at the end of the phase, unless he is in play.

I feel like I've accomplished something generating this long a reply from you, dude. Have a beer for me.

I absolutely saw the 3.14 quote but was all "nope, that doesn't apply because it's talking about stuff printed on the card not being usable ("actionable"), not stuff already affecting the card.

Anyway, your points are all well taken, but I'm at least a little edified to see that I was not overlooking some sort of obvious, clear rule or FAQ answer or something, and left wondering why this stuff can't be laid out more systematically. A dude I know tried his hand at technical (rulebook) writing for FFG for a short period of time and told me it was a super frustrating experience. He just wanted to wave the good GMT rulebooks in their faces and yell "THIS is how you write a rulebook, damnit."

Anyway, thanks!