The killer disappointment for me (with MoX) was the disturbing lack of xenos...pls allow me to explain!

Loved the tau stuff, as i know next to zip about them - great! This made the book for me, right there.

Good tyranid stuff, not all of it, but a good chunk - nice! THis was my yummy gravy.

Good chaos stuff, always need chaos - nice! Always handy to have greater demon stats.

Xenos....some eldar, waaayyy less ork, no 'crons (to be expected given the setting, but....game shouldn't limit its material to just one setting - but that's not the argument here, so let's keep reading and ignore the lack of necron nastiness for the purposes of this thread)

But the real big kick in the pants is that the xenos section includes, perhaps, a dozen new aliens for us to play with. A dozen? Really? That's it? Myself, and I can only speak for meself, I xpected a book called Mark of the Xenos to include, ahem, a few more aliens...to be fair, Chaos could have been left out, as they already got a feature in the main book...orks should probly have been in the main book too. I really think the major bone of contention is the underwhelming number of aliens in the monster book...FFG could have dispensed with the librarian's notes and fancy bricabrac they load their products with, and kept things trim, stream-lined, and crammed with more monstery goodness. I must admit that, given the other wh40k lines, i thought we'd get a whole helluva lotta cool aliens from all the different lines, statted for DW and ready to eat space marines....

Now, I'm a veteran of the grimdark, so i can stat critters with little real problem...but, for someone who has not waded thru the Emperor's realm for 25 years, the task of monster-building could be a tad overwhelming...it is they who needed a comprehensive xenos guide...it is they who were left in the cold with no critters to fight...it is they who look at the rulebook and monster manual and say: "Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?" Heck, a space marine can't even kill a grox, cause we ain't got stats for it! (grox = cow, by the way; giant lizard cow, i s'pose, but cow nonetheless)

So, is it the customers' fault for having expectations? Is it the customer's fault for having expectations not met? Me, I'd say no to the first question, qualified no to the second...

Zappiel said:

Adeptus-B said:

The thing is FFG don't need to 'contrive and excuse' to minimise the presence of the other iconic factions - they need to contrive an excuse to include them. Having every 40k faction as a major presence in a given sector is ridiculous and contrived excuses to include them all are just that - contrived. As it is they've included a minimal presence of the other factions so that you have an excuse to use them if you really must, but they aren't the focus of the setting.

Some customers - such as yourself - don't like that. Others (as demonstrated by this thread) prefer it. I'd prefer a focused setting that provides plenty of support for each of the races rather than a silly, diluted one.

The only real contrivance in Deathwatch is the Warp Gate. You can't have Tau and Tyranids without the Eastern Fringe, and you can't have your setting linked to the Calixis Sector without being in the north-west of the galaxy. Therefore - Warp Gate. May a little inelegant, but it still gets the job done.

BYE

I guess I prefer the 'kitchen sink' approach because I come to the WH40KRP line from the 40K tabletop game, where everybody fights everybody, all the time...

To put a more positive spin on my criticism, I hope that FFG takes a page from the TSR/WotC handling of D&D and releases some alternative settings for the WH40KRP line at some point in the future. When all the 'low-hanging fruit' for Jericho Reach supplements has been plucked, I think there would definitely be a market for a 'new' setting (maybe on the opposite side of the Well of Night?), with more xenos and less Chaos.

Zappiel said:

First: the game shouldn't limit its material to just one setting? What? Where does this belief come from? The DW game line is built to primarily support the DW setting of the Jericho Reach. Just as the RT line supports the Koronus Expanse and DH supports the Calixis Sector. You can transplant the statblocks of, say, Chaos groups or lesser daemons from DH into other sectors - Cadia, Scarus, etc. - but don't expect the DH line to write as if the game is designed to be set on Cadia, for example. The galaxy is huge, there has to be limitations on this kind of a game setting or nothing actually gets written. The fluff from the DH books can easily be transplanted into your sector of choice, or ignored, at the GM's choice. The same can be said for a DW game set during the Badab War in the Maelstrom Zone - the Chaos enemy stats would be useful, and maybe some of the other xeno stuff, but the fluff would not, since that's not the setting of the books. How is that hard to understand? OF A NECESSITY the game must limit its material to one setting, or you have a ton of unconnected bloat that works for this particular table or that, as opposed to creating a baseline (the Jericho Reach).The Reach may not work for your particular table, bit it's written for the broader base (and from what I understand has gone over well) and having a base setting connected to the other FFG40k settings is important for tie-in reasons or the off chance that your SMs go to Koronus or your acolytes go to investigate something in Jericho.

Second...you think the Chaos feature in the Core was sufficient? Haha. One type of CSM, great. I'd have loved more orks, but, AGAIN, FFG made an initial design decision to not make orks a main antagonist for DW, and to think they would alter that decision in the middle of their gameline is really silly. Personally I feel like a lot more can be done with flavors of Chaos and especially CSMs than orks, who are fun but ultimately rather one-dimensional.

Also you complain about lack of necrons (or perhaps newcrons) while acknowledging that DW predates the Imperial first contact with them...whaaat?

Yeah...well, I'll hafta try to explain things just a wee bit more sloowwly....

Kshat & HB really need to read what i post with both eyes open....and yer brains in gear....or yer deliberately bein' thick, hey, whatever...

what i apparently have not made clear is that i do not want FFG;s premade setting; it'd be nice; i planned to have it; but, ultimately, for a space marine game in 40k, there is a whole galaxy to play in, so having one specific corner premade for me is not a necessity. I want building blocks with which i can create the 40k experience for my players...naturally, such building blocks would be all that cool 40 k stuff that drew us all here in the first place. I am even willing to pay for those building blocks....

it seems to me that a good 40k rpg would provide all the 40k building blocks we are familiar with....

instead, we get material that FFG has shoe-horned into their premade setting, and while this is a wide-swath of material, it is not complete, nor does it allow one to build adventures in alternate regions because we don't have the building blocks for it.

can we do this on our own? Yes! gladly! But...it'd be nice if a 40k game had a bit more application to the wider 40 k universe.....instead of "we designed this one sector and it's only got x, y, and z critters in it - if you want anything else, you're a whiner and irrelevant"

Can FFG design and release books that cater both to the 40 k generalist and the jericho fanatic? Yes! Have they so far? No! We want lottsa cool and interesting xenos...but you say that just ain't so in Jericho Reach, so no luck....

It seems the problem is FFG is catering to their own premade domain, at the expense of the wider galaxy....you say that's fine, others say they want more....

My personal complaint is the combining of setting material with rules material...I want the option of buying into the premade setting, or not; I want to be able to buy supplementary rules without having to pay for extraneous crap.

FFG should have kept the entire 40k setting in mind when making these books; and they should have then provided the jericho setting for those who needed it. As you rightly point out, shoehorning everything into Jericho is silly. Why would they even attempt such a thing? The triple crusade is a nice touch, but clearly that's pushing things about as far as reason would allow. Deathwatch doesn't just happen in jericho, why then should all the supplements use jericho as a base? Ultimately, FFG is paying a lot of attention to their specific setting at the expense of the wider galaxy as a whole. This, gentlemen, is the core issue, it seems. The specific setting of a game should not trump its overall playability or adaptability to alternate scenarios. DW, unfortuanately, makes this mistake.

Now, can we carry on this conversation with a tad more civility?

You write as if FFG had an option, or full license. That may not actually be the case. We don't know. GW understandably keeps a tight leash on the 40k intellectual property, it's worth a lot of money and they want to keep continuity.

You seem to want FFG to put out info for a broader 40k setting, not the setting of the DH/RT/DW/BC game lines, which are basically connected by physical proximity (including proximity via warp gate). Assuming that's even possible, how is it probable? It works against a coherent single setting, which is the cornerstone of a basic RPG. For all that D&D has multiple planes, how many books are devoted to different regions of Faerun and how many are devoted to different planes touching it? I can think of at least65 Faerun-specific setting books and maybe 1 that truly deals with other planes...why? Becuase Faerun is a default setting. It's a self-contained world that removes the burden of world-building from the GM, allowing them to focus on creating a story, not creating a setting from the ground up but instead expanding on the setting as it relates to their story.

I am sure that part of the reason for the Jericho focus is money. Publishing is not cheap. Wordcount is not unlimited, especially when FFG is still making physical books. They want to sweep in as many fans as possible on each release. Jericho stuff is going to sell because the majority of DW GMs are running in Jericho. For those that aren't, some stuff might be transferred, some may not, but the target audience is getting hit and that's where volume of sales and profit come from. Putting out a book about, say, the Deathwatch in the Maelstron Zone might intrigue you but it might be close to useless for people running Jericho-focused campaigns. How would that be a smart business move?

I think your complaints basically apply to ever game-maker. Baseline D&D caters to Greyhawk and is maybe the most applicable to custom settings; lines like FR and Eberron do not. Exalted caters solely to its setting, as do the WoD lines. As does L5R, Shadowrun, etc. Perhaps it's because these don't have a literal galaxy to work with, and 40k does,but notably much of 40k setting history takes place in certain areas; a lot get mentions, but let's be honest and say that Cadia is probably the most plot-important place in the Imperium for the tabletop game.

Serious question: do your complaints also fall on RT and DH? Do you wish you could have acolytes on Cadia or Rogue Traders plying Segmentum Pacificus, and you feel that you lack material to support those kinds of games with the books we have?

You're the one calling us 'thick', so calling for civility is a little rich Zap.

"What i apparently have not made clear is that i do not want FFG;s premade setting "

That's great. I have no issue with that. As I've said before we don’t use the Calixis Sector in our Dark Heresy campaign, instead using one of our own creation (created through a series of regular 40K campaigns, as it happens). Because of this a lot of the Calixis fluff in DH is ‘wasted’ on us because we don’t really use it. I’ve taken bits and pieces and adapted it (like the Beast House, which I like a lot), and obviously the rules are mostly universal (eg. the sermons and ceremonies Clerics get from BoM can be used anywhere; they’re not Calixis-specific), but the fluff and developments in the fluff usually go over our heads because our gaze is focused elsewhere.

Of course... I’m not demanding that FFG stop using their chosen setting and instead cater to all possible settings, nor am I claiming that because their books use their setting that they are somehow ‘gouging’ me.

You, Zap, don’t use the Jericho Reach. That’s fine. I can see why it mightn’t be to everyone’s tastes and not everyone likes the same things about 40K. I love Tyranids, I’m a big Chaos fan, and I love killing Tau, so the Reach was perfect for me. But if I didn’t use the Reach, and wanted something with a more heavy emphasis on, say, Orks or Eldar, I’d go look for other books (or fan productions, like Nathan’s stuff) to fill that void. Of course, the fact remains that each of the RPGs has a specific setting, and whether you personally want or use that setting is irrelevant. Their books will fit within the framework of that setting, and if that’s useful or not useful to you then that’s your own problem to solve. They don’t create ‘general’ RPG’s for any setting, they create RPG’s for specific and defined settings (Calixis, Koronus, Jericho, Vortex). You certainly never have to use these settings, but it’s foolish to yell at them for creating material for their own settings.

BYE

Focusing on a setting is a necessity if you want to tell a conclusive story. Which is what RPG is really about and what separates it from wargaming IMHO. It is also what I am willing to pay money for, since making up numbers is far easier than making up believable characters and a gripping story.

The "kitchen sink" approach would have left Deathwatch with a more generic feel and far less flavour. I absolutely approve of their focus on the Jericho Reach, it makes it easy for me to tell a story. Further I am glad that FFG don't release monster manuals in the classical D&D sense (pack of descriptions and stats) but rather go for adventure seeds.

I you want Orks, there are rather more than enough of them in Rogue Trader, and I'm pretty sure you'll find them in the Koronus Bestiary. Giving them 30 wounds instead of 22 should not be the issue now, should it.

Dok Martin said:

When it's much easier why do we need any errata? I've never read anything in any errata about changes for the fluff, only for crunch.

It may be easy to make up any numbers, but you will have to check them thoroughly for compatibility with existing rules and this means hours of number crunching. On the contrary when a story flows it flows, no need to doublecheck.

Yeah I'm not helping anyone here.

If I can't convince anyone that Deathwatch has a specific setting and that its rules/fluff are written for that specific setting with what I've said already, or if you want to use the word 'free lancer' like it's some form of pejorative, then really nothing I ever say will change that or stop you. I apologise for any of my own behaviour, but right now I feel that contributing another lengthy and argumentative post will achieve nothing other than digging the hole we're in a little deeper.

So I'm ejecting from this discussion.

*drops the mic*

BYE

I like the setting and focus of the Deathwatch game just fine, it's **** great.

Like H.M.B.C., I'm also god **** sick and tired of seeing these threads whining about why each and every single 40K alien race isn't included in the Deathwatch section.

That is all.

Surely you can see how disappointing it is if your favourite faction gets left out.

Like I've said before, I think it is bizarre to invent a stargate to way the hell over the other side of the galaxy just so you can include the Tau, only to then leave out Orks and Eldar.

AluminiumWolf said:

We could say that just about everyone, really this is a situation all about the old adage, " You can't please all of the people, all of the time. "

Some people would complain if there wasn't enough possibility for intrigue and rivalry inside the Crusade, some people would complain if there weren't any new (or little seen) aliens in the game's setting. Some people are complaining that each and every race from the tabletop game isn't in there. Plenty of people would complain if Chaos wasn't involved (it is THE major enemy of humanity, in the overall setting).

And I understand why some folks wouldn't be happy about their favourite faction not being given any 'screen' time. I think we would be left with an overall lower quality setting (and game) if the Jericho Reach was populated by all manner of Xenos horrors. It would dilute the focus of the game, and the overall story that your players are generally meant to be a part of in Deathwatch (which is still whatever the hell you decide the Omega Vault is build for).

I, for one, will be dissapointed if Dark Eldar don't get playable rules in Black Crusade.

And the setting is by no means closed off from inclusion of the Orks, Eldar, and etc. in later material, whether a single book, or presented more organically multiple volumes (a book about the secret threat hidden by the Omega Vault could present multiple options and include material on Necrons, Enslavers, strange new species, or just plain ol' Chaos).

But I think the way we have things now was a better way to go than trying to wedge every tabletop race in to the setting and game. I've also played Dawn of War. And Warhammer Online (which doesn't even include every race). Too much can just weigh things down.

Kain McDogal said:

Are you ****ing kidding? Just wing it. Nobody will notice. This "wah, I have to actually prep as a GM, and I'm overstating the amount of prep at that" smacks of taking the victim mentality. Not going to win you any sympathy from me.

Blood Pact said:

Well, when you have already invented a stargate just so as to wedge in the Tau it doesn't seem like you are going much out of your way to include Orks.

I kind of like the all race hoedowns like Fall of Medusa V. The whole gang turns out.

AluminiumWolf said:

And other people hate it. Sure, it's understandable that some people would be annoyed that their favourite faction was left out, but I think most people are happier with a better, more focused campaign. As for the stargate, I think it was more so they could include the 'nids, not the Tau, though the Tau certainly make for a more interesting enemy than the orks, increasing the range of mission types you can throw at the PCs.

Dok Martin said:

Of the various games the one that would have benefitted most from a non-specific setting, or having stats for various things and just not having them in the official setting. I do think some aspects of the background have some interesting points (The Omega Vault, or whatever it is called, and various individual bits), but I don't think the general premise is very inspiring. Basically, on the small scale they have done fine, but the overall plan is just off. I think I would have actually preferred just having the small plot elements (with no particular setting), rather than the Royal Rumble between 4 different forces that is the Jericho Reach.

borithan said:

Whereas I find it to be probably the most inspiring of the 40k setting I've read yet (haven't seen much of the BC one yet). One man's meat is another man's poison and all that.

I feel that MotX was a good book, even with its weaknesses. For those who are unhappy with a lack of xenos, especially specific types, what creatues would you lke to add? its true theres not alot outside the main enemies, but there is all the components there for a creative gm.

H.B.M.C. said:

dude i think your under-valuing what theyre saying, if you want a specific enemy and its not in the books for the line then you have a) write the stats yourself or B) buy their other matierial. be it out of lazyness or desire for balance your pretty much forced to buy that book.
also have you ever played dnd? did you always play "in the setting" for the edition? is your imagination that limited?most gms reject preset settings in favor of their own, i personally float in and out of the jerico reach becuase i like eldar as enemys and i think their tatics can give marines a good run for their money just like on TT. not only that but to again compare it to dnd name one player who has used every monster out of every monster manual for 3.5(the most expasive edtion). no one, why? becuase not everything fits in a setting/theme/plot style ect ect. they have every reason to produce material if they want the lines to be truly seprate, if not act like it.

borithan said:

I'd like to think of things a little bit less cynically.

But it's ironic that you'd pick things apart like that, when they're giving people part of what they wanted. Tabletop races that haven't been used in the lines yet!

What's wrong with thinking that it went more like "How are we going to use the Tau and Tyranids when they're on the other side of the Galaxy?" "Some of the old fluff talks about ancient Warp Gates, how about one of those?" (yes, Warp Gates, not the Webway) Though what we have in Deathwatch isn't actually a "Warp" Gate either. The only difference is one is apparently instant and the other was said to be slower than standard warp travel. And I think the fact that the Koronus Expanse was right next to the Calixis Sector should have tipped everyone off that they were keeping things in neighboring areas, so bending the rules with the gate is hardly something to cry foul about.

Arguyle said:

What they're saying sounds a lot like petty complaints about how each and every tabletop race wasn't crammed in to the book, expanding the book as much as needed so that each faction wouldn't get an exceedingly small amount of attention, based on page limits. And I just said why that wouldn't work.

And I 've played D&D and a whole lot more, most of my GM's actually used the setting with only minor changes (even the major ones tended to maintain the core of the setting) and still present stories full of imagination and creativity. I'm actually quite insulted that you'd conflate using the established setting with being a poor GM. And really, every monster? That's a bit much now, isn't it? By the way, it's not like I've asked them, but I'd bet a few gamers I knew have used all of them. More importantly to the discussion, perhaps you forget how sparse some of those monster writeups were. Averaging only a couple paragraphs and maybe half had pictures in early editions. While Mark of the Xenos goes in to decidedly more detail with each of its entries (on average). And its form frequently strays away from alphabetically listing one creature after another. Not to mention it's only one book, to the multiple Monster Manuals for D&D.

Blood Pact said:

you misinterpret my words. i think ONLY being able to use the preset means your probably a bad gm. no i dont forget how spare the write ups are( also was specific in edition) i have the books next to my computer, half of the fun of the dnd system(for a gm) was creating you own take on it to tell your story and too much background doesnt leave you enough to work with. WH40k has a lot of preset history that TT'ers would be insluted if you left out so its included to beef up the entries. as for "its only one book" isnt that the point? we want MORE books in this line that cover the races out of line setting but in the global setting tuned for the level of DW play? Motx i actually liked... kinda. my beef was the 1/2 assed approach to orks im of the do it or dont opinion and to give something id call an incomplete showing for an adventure is lacking. i would have rather had some more of something in setting than a partial glimpse at something out of setting a direction to another book.
if they wanted to do monster manuals perhaphs they could do one for each fluff/TT faction? and one for other/misc? in such a book you could find every creature, vehicle, and peice of gear that faction has access too along with some adventure hooks back story and maybe a sample adventure in like 200 pages.this i would buy and hell thats like seven books if you covered all the codexs from TT without having subdivision codexs seperate.

Blood Pact said:

Anyway, yes, I guess it seems fairly cynical, and yes I am sure it was less cavalier than I presented it as, but it doesn't stop it feeling like it might have been done that way. I don't mind that they included the various races they did, its just I don't like the execution. I don't see why it did have to be so directly linked to the previous settings. Calixis was at a frontier of Imperial control, so the idea that somewhere nearby (the Koronus expanse) might be a good setting for the exploration of the unknown doesn't feel too weird, and it would let them play with things that DH hinted at being "just out of sight". On the other hand I don't really see much being gained from the choice to directly link the Jericho Reach to the Calixis Sector. As it is at the other end of the galaxy there are no logical links (they have put some in of course, like the Haarlock Dynasty having their roots in the area when it was known as the Jericho sector), and I don't think there is anything much lost by taking it out. That would have helped with the arbitrary feeling of it all.

There still would have been the whole "Four way mash up!" issue, which is harder to deal with if you want to include the various races in the "official" setting, but then I feel that of the various games Deathwatch is the one that needed an overarching setting the least. I feel there would be much more justification for allowing characters doing a lot more roaming across the galaxy, and I think it is the one that many people already had an idea of how they would run. Dark Heresy, being about investigation and conspiracies, very much needed a suggested setting, with those powerful forces set up, to inspire less confident GMs with ideas. The Rogue Trader also needed it to some extent, even in so much as to detail things that are not the tabletop standard to reinforce the idea that "there are things out there that are not known". Deathwatch, on the other hand... I just don't see the need. Stats for various enemies (particularly well known ones), yes. Some various suggestions and guidance on the lines of "Not everything has to be a shoot-em-up", with plot ideas, yes. A full worked up setting, with a war with various forces? Just not convinced. The better bits of the setting (in my opinion) don't need to be tied to the Jericho reach setting. In fact, the thing that interests me the most (The Omega Vault) I think would fit better in a setting where it is the focus, ie not one with a massive great war hanging over it. The suggested set up of the Jericho Reach before the crusade actually interests me more as an idea (ie, abandoned by the Imperium, the Deathwatch being the only real Imperial presence, everything quietly degrading and going to hell in a hand cart).