For some time I thought about buying upcoming Rogue Trader Koronus bestiary but discussion onboard this forum about all 4 wh40k rpg games being separate lines gave me a pause. Most prominent members as N0-1_H3r3 or H.B.M.C. who design or playtest most books stated that all 4 games are treated as separate lines and player do not need to use books from other line to play the game. If that statement is really what is considered by FFG as their true opinion then DW players should await for arrival of the next bestiary. There are 2 reasons: first - DW is [or at least should be] a game of xenos hunting and its current monster maual is lacking when it comes to xenos threats [i do not want to start another discussion about this book having wrong title], second - we should not be forced to buy a book from other line to have most popular wh40k foes like Eldar or Orks [patethic section in MoX does not count] or xenos generator. In conclusion we deserve to have another DW bestiary that gives us everything that DW line is lacking for now and would make xenos hunting game better. Few examples what it would include are: Eldar Aspect warriors, Avatar of Khaine, Wraithlord and Wraithguard, Harlequins, Warlock and Farseer etc. for Eldar, Wyrdboy, Gretchins, Squigs and Squiggots, Flash Gitz, Stormboyz, Deffdreads etc. for Orks, all new Necron stuff, all new Dark Eldar etc. and of course xenos generator rules to create our own xenos species. What are your opinions fellow DW batlle brothers?

Theoretical: You could wait for the next DW monster manual, even though it's highly unlikely that it will ever appear.

Practical: Have a look at the Koronus Bestiary once it's out. Yes, they are separate lines, but that doesn't mean that it is forbidden use it if it makes sense. I think there's a rather good chance of Eldar being included en detail.

Creatures Anathema I cannot recommend for that purpose 'cause the monsters in there are heavy on the mystery and horror part and comparatively light on the kill factor. Which, as a Dark Heresy GM, is just the way I like it.

Dok.

I'm waiting for the eventual Black Crusade Bestiary Book. It's most likely going to have more Necron and Dark Eldar goodness.

Shadow Walker said:

1. Out of interest, who's forcing you to buy anything?

2. The Emperor doesn't actually protect anything in The Emperor Protects, there's no actual books of judgement in the Book of Judgement, my copy of Blood of Martyrs was free from any blood on its pages, there are no rites of battle written anywhere in Rites of Battle, Chaos never commanded I do anything in The Chaos Commandment, I didn't stare into an abyss whilst reading Edge of the Abyss (and no abyss stared back either) and from what I recall Rising Tempest doesn't actually involve any tempests, rising or otherwise. Mark of the Xenos is an expression, or a phrase, common to 40K. That is all. Stop trying to use its title as the basis for a woefully flawed argument on why MoX should have had 'more aliens'. MoX is the Bestiary book for the Deathwatch line, a line which includes three major enemies - Tyranids, Tau and Chaos ie. exactly what that book was filled with . Please move on.

3. Deathwatch can be a game of whatever you want it to be, so saying that it 'should' be a game of xenos-hunting is rather narrow and dictatorial. What's to stop a group playing a game based around destroying a group of humans who have fallen to the Tau and have started a war? They're not hunting aliens there... is that ok with you to do that, or must all games of Deathwatch conform to a very specific point of view as to how the organisation works rather than how the Deathwatch within the Deathwatch setting function? It's an RPG, and you can do pretty much whatever you want with it. No one is forcing you to play it in a specific manner. Deathwatch, the actual game, has a defined setting, and that setting involves the significant presence on non-Alien foes. Why, so long after its release, are people having trouble grasping this very simple concept.

4. As I just said, Deathwatch, the game (not the Imperial organisation) has a specific setting, The Jericho Reach. In that setting the Orks play a minimal role and the Eldar play virtually no role at all. Devoting resources to covering races that aren't present/have no part to play in the setting of the Deathwatch game would be pointless, whereas expanding upon the Orks and Eldar within a setting that does involve them (like, say, the Kornus Expanse) makes far more sense.

5. You, me and all of us, collectively, do not 'deserve' anything. I'm not going to repeat the 'Deathwatch has a setting' mantra again.

6. A Xenos Generator makes a lot of sense for a game like RT, where you are exploring an unknown region of space to find fame and fortune. On the other hand, when a setting features Tyranids, Tau and Chaos as predominant factions such a thing isn't as necessary. Not saying it wouldn't be fun, but such a rule set certainly lends itself better to one than it does the other. Then again, there's nothing stopping anyone from buying The Koronus Bestiary to get those rules, but please keep a clear head and remember that no one is forcing you to do anything.

BYE

H.B.M.C.

1. I am forced to buy other books because Deathwatch, a game about xenos hunting organisation do not provide me with stats for majority of most important aliens of 40k.

2. I said that I do not want to start another discussion about MoX title being wrong and you started it again. I fully understand that it is bestiary for current DW setting and it has its limitation because of it. And this is why I [and I think many people] would like to see second bestiary for DW line.

3. DW setting is an excuse for designers for general SM game instead xenos hunting which is primary goal for Deathwatch. I can live with that and I know that in rpg only my imagination is a limit.

4. Only because Orks presence in JR is small does it mean we must have almost no stats for them? They are there so I could use them in the setting but again where are the stats? Instead we have designer's note in MoX that basically says that if I want more Orks then I should buy RT: Into the storm or DH: Creatures Anathema = and now please tell me again that nobody force me to buy anything and that they are separate lines. Eldar are mentioned in Achilus Assault = they are also in JR. Again no stats.

5. We deserve because we are customers and without us there is no profit for a company. I would be nice if they listen what their customers wish.

Shadow Walker said:

H.B.M.C. said:

I have to side with Shadow Walker on this one: the Jericho Reach wasn't an established location prior to the Deathwatch game, so there was no reason to largely exclude the iconic xenos of the 40K universe in a game about elite xeno hunters. It's not like the designers hands were tied on Day 1.

Adeptus-B said:

Because it made for a better, more focused setting? Throwing everything in from the 40k setting into it just dilutes the line. GW and their licencees have made the mistake in the past of trying to include every 40k faction possible into a game, resulting in ridiculous rationales and a poorer product as a result.

Shadow Walker said:

They do. That's why Mark of the Xenos contains mainly Tau, Tyranids. and Chaos. "Their customers" is not "you."

My thoughts on the subject as this: Eldar are ******* and Orks are only a threat to Deathwatch characters is so large a number that even using the horde rules it would be an unwieldy combat to run.

Sure large groups of Eldar MIGHT be troublesome and dangerous to REGULAR Space Marines, but in DeathWatch they would be an annoyance for the hardened xenos killers. Because let's not forget that DW are elite among Space Marines and while they do not EXCLUSIVELY kill Xenos they are very very good at it.

That's why Chaos is a great enemy because they aren't the specialty of the DW and they have just as much backing and firepower. Tyranids are monstrous and inhuman, the epitome of what it is the DW set out stop, and on top of that it takes harderned specialists just to be able to kill them. And the Tau.... well superior firepower, longer range, quick to redeploy and outflank, yes I see why they are there too. They are pretty much the only 40k faction with better tech than the DW who has the best tech humanity can make. You can say the Eldar have superior tech, but its not as far and away better as the Tau stuff. It's about challenge, Orks and Eldar just don't bring enough to the table, plus they've been in other settings whereas Chaos Space Marines, the Tau, and the Tyranids hadn't.

If you want to put them in your DW game then sure, go out and buy the Kronus Bestiary and Creatures Anathema but if you want to make them a challenge even for starting out DW characters then you're going to want to ratchet up their stats and give them some more talents and traits otherwise they won't be a challenge they'll just be an exercise in making blood flavored jam.

It's pretty obvious that some races were deliberately left out of specific settings only to appear exclusively in other FFG RPGs. And although some welknown freeleancers repeatedly insist that all 4 are different games we are forced to buy books from the other lines to get stats for all iconic adversaries.

There is nothing wrong with a company try making money but don't try to tell the customers that it isn't true!

Once again - who is forcing you to buy these products? Name this shady clandestine group that continues to force poor innocent players to buy books they don't want. And your assumptions, Kain, are always the most fun to read.

Adeptus-B said:

I see both sides of the argument here. But I guess I need to explain with more precise wording.

H.B.M.C. the point they are making is that FFG had to make the choice to exclude certain iconic foes from the Deathwatch line. It is true, they did that.

Others, FFG made that choice so as not to water down the line, in a manner that other product lines had suffered from in the past.

Would you rather have negligible info on a bunch of stuff or a lot of tight info on a few things? And to go back to my previous point, the choices they made for what foes to throw at the Deathwatch were made on a thematic and power scale. Chaos 'Nids and Tau are the only things that can (as far as the icionic races go) give a DW Kill-team a good run for their money. Ork's can be killed in tides, and even Warbosses aren't so tough as to give a mid Rank (say 3-5ish) Kill-team any kind of pause, even if he's got a horde of Boyz and a group of Mega-Armored Nobz with him. And the Eldar? really? Sure they might be hard to hit, but you land one solid blow and they fall apart like paper mache, its sad really.

So FFG made the choice to give you challenging enemies that can present threats from Rank 1 all the way to 8. Each of them can also have several different deployment types, such as stealthy (Genestealers, Stealth suits, Night Lords) , insidious (Water Caste, Genestealers again, Alpha Legion or cultists), otherworldly (Ethereals, Zooanthropes, Thousand Sons), brute (Carnifex, Broadside Suits, World Eaters or cultists), and I could go on and on and on about the myriad different types of fights and foes you could face with those three groups. Whereas the Eldar and Orks you seem to clamor for have a much less diverse repertoire.

So while I understand why you might want some Orks and some Eldar just because they are part of 40k, they really aren't that big of an issue to the Deathwatch, they don't have the longevity or versatility as good antagonists for the game, so it would be kinda wasteful on the part of FFG to really write much more than side note about them. And again if you want them, they are in books, which have compatible rules that you can buy if you want to include them in the early parts of your game. Otherwise, just make up some stats for them yourself.

I see both sides of the argument here. But I guess I need to explain with more precise wording.

H.B.M.C. the point they are making is that FFG had to make the choice to exclude certain iconic foes from the Deathwatch line. It is true, they did that.

Others, FFG made that choice so as not to water down the line, in a manner that other product lines had suffered from in the past.

Would you rather have negligible info on a bunch of stuff or a lot of tight info on a few things? And to go back to my previous point, the choices they made for what foes to throw at the Deathwatch were made on a thematic and power scale. Chaos 'Nids and Tau are the only things that can (as far as the icionic races go) give a DW Kill-team a good run for their money. Ork's can be killed in tides, and even Warbosses aren't so tough as to give a mid Rank (say 3-5ish) Kill-team any kind of pause, even if he's got a horde of Boyz and a group of Mega-Armored Nobz with him. And the Eldar? really? Sure they might be hard to hit, but you land one solid blow and they fall apart like paper mache, its sad really.

So FFG made the choice to give you challenging enemies that can present threats from Rank 1 all the way to 8. Each of them can also have several different deployment types, such as stealthy (Genestealers, Stealth suits, Night Lords) , insidious (Water Caste, Genestealers again, Alpha Legion or cultists), otherworldly (Ethereals, Zooanthropes, Thousand Sons), brute (Carnifex, Broadside Suits, World Eaters or cultists), and I could go on and on and on about the myriad different types of fights and foes you could face with those three groups. Whereas the Eldar and Orks you seem to clamor for have a much less diverse repertoire.

So while I understand why you might want some Orks and some Eldar just because they are part of 40k, they really aren't that big of an issue to the Deathwatch, they don't have the longevity or versatility as good antagonists for the game, so it would be kinda wasteful on the part of FFG to really write much more than side note about them. And again if you want them, they are in books, which have compatible rules that you can buy if you want to include them in the early parts of your game. Otherwise, just make up some stats for them yourself.

H.B.M.C. said:

The "specific setting" was created by FFG specifically for Deathwatch ; it wasn't a pre-existing established location. Therefore, the "Jericho Reach" could have been designed so that it puts the focus on the previously established mission of the Deathwatch (fighting a broad range of xenos), rather than contriving an excuse to minimize the presence of popular, icon xenos in favor of Chaos- which was already the focus enemy of Dark Heresy , and the nexus of Black Crusade (which came out later, but was almost certainly in developement at the time). The Jericho Reach seems like a big missed opportunity to me. It could have showcased the Deathwatch doing what they do best (killing a variety of xenos); instead it is both narrowed (only two xenos) and diffused (superfulous Chaos).

Adeptus-B said:

But I like the Chaos forces of the Reach. ^^

You really think that FFG would have made a game where the player characters are Space Marines and not include their Traitor counterparts in the core book as a core antagonist? If Chaos had been replaced with, say, Eldar, we'd see the exact same argument from the other side. Actually, no, it would be worse, since unlike the Eldar, up until Black Crusade, there were no Chaos Space Marine stats- unless I'm mistaken on that count, in which case please, feel free to ignore that bit. At any rate, asking for a Space Marine game without Chaos Space Marines is like asking for ice cream without sugar (or any other kind of sweetener). Sure, you could do it, but it's not going to be as good. In any game featuring the Imperium as the player race, Chaos will feature as a key player, since Chaos is the archenemy of the forces of Man. And while I disagree with the 'papier mache Eldar' argument (dem knife-ears be a powerful foe, man), it's a lot easier to make up a new Chaos force or Tau sept or Tyranid hive fleet than a new Eldar craftworld. Let's not forget, Deathwatch had to be approved by GW before FFG could publish it, and they're rather serious about the whole 'extremely limited number of craftworlds' bit. And all of the known craftworlds also have known locations, so it's not like they can say that Biel-Tan or Ulthwe just migrated over to the Reach.

Now, if you want Orks and Eldar in your game, that's perfectly fine. It is, after all, your game, and who am I- or anyone else on this forum- to tell you that you're having bad wrong fun? It's just that FFG decided to focus on a few major Xenos threats in the Reach, instead of bringing in the Necrons, the Orks, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, the Hrud, the Slaugth, or any of the other countless alien threats to the Imperium, so you'll have to go elsewhere to find your stats. There are three major options here. Option one, the option which Shadow Walker opposes, is purchasing books from Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader which feature those races. Personally, I love me some 40K RP, so I'm buying as many of the books as I can afford anyway, but different strokes for different folks. Suppose you just hate the idea of having your own ship, or don't want to be a lowly peon of the Imperium? Fine. Option one is needlessly expensive for you. Option two is to homebrew. With some official Ork stats, extrapolating further to get the various boyz shouldn't be too hard, and tweaking of various vehicles from Rites should give you any trukks or battlewagons you might need. Eldar are a bit tougher, but still, homebrewing is possible. Let's say you don't have the time, the patience, or the skill to do that. What then? That's when Option three comes into play: use someone else's homebrew. There are several sites (Dark Reign and Dakka Dakka come to mind) which cater to homebrewers and allow them to showcase their work. Or, you find a homebrewer's own site (the man I always cite is N0-1-h3r3 Nathan, because I use his Eldar and Ork stats all the time) and steal, steal, steal- with proper credit given, of course. Wouldn't want someone to take you for a common Freeboota, after all.

The chaos forces of DH and those of DW are very different. DH focuses on the Chaos conspiracy/plot/shadow war; DW focuses on the Chaos army/open war. Primarily, of course, there can be mix and match for your campaign. They're different fits for very different settings. Calixis is (relatively) stable, far moreso than Jericho.

Also I'll add my voice to the crowd: you're not forced to buy anything.

If you think the DH books can simply be used to create DW enemies, try running a DH-statted Eldar against DW PCs. They will die pretty quick. For that matter, trying running DH-statted genestealers against DW PCs. Same response. They're not on the same level as those in MoX or TEP, rightfully so. Conversions are not easy, because it's true - they're separate lines that are only tied together by setting. The difference in power levels means porting is not easy or natural.

Better to take inspiration from the same line with regard to capabilities or make something up wholesale rather than regurgitate the victim mentality of "they MAKE me buy books from lines I don't play!" And I guess it's so terrible to have to use Nathan's rather complete homebrew Eldar repository, oh how awful that's it's not official.

For a roleplaying game, I much prefer the focus of Jericho over the "kitchen sink" approach of, say, the worldwide setting games from the wargame or the Dawn of War line. Those are all-inclusive for reasons that just don't apply to a specific setting in an RPG, and which have to widely cater to all players (so everyone can get in on the action in the wargame and creating an all-inclusive experience for online play for Dawn of War). Those are not products which have to jam a lot of information into one limited book, and a video game is not subject to a restriction like wordcount. To me, adding in every possible enemy race under the sun would ruin the focus a bit, turn it into an "everything is happening here and everything cares about it" rather than "these are the major problems here, with minor issues with other races." The wordcount on the books is not going to change; adding more varied content means information dilution. I think the authors made the right choice to focus. I like Deathwatch to have to get out of its element and fight Chaos.

The ‘kitchen sink approach’ point mentioned above is an interesting one.

Think of Dawn of War: Soulstorm and how much of a flusterfeth it was. Marines, Guard and Sisters of Battle (all with a justification to slaughter one another), plus Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Orks, Necrons and Tau. 9 races battling it out over a small area of space. It didn’t work. This is why I’m glad FFG made the choice to limit who was involved in their setting (or settings) for each game.

In the Calixis Sector we have mostly human enemies, with the odd bit of Eldar, Ork, Slaught (SP??) and other exotics floating in. It’s a game about conspiracy and mystery, so the bad guys are less overt. In the Koronus Expanse we have the Orks, the Eldar (both Corsair & Craftworld), Chaos Reavers, Rak’Gol and the Stryxis. In the Jericho Reach we have the Tyranids, the Tau and the forces of Chaos. There’s a little involvement from the Orks (‘cause Orks the Orks are pretty much everywhere!), and a few odd and ends here and there. In the Screaming Vortex we have a lot of similar enemies to the players, so rival heretics and whatnot, plus the forces of the Imperium and some scattered Necrons and Dark Eldar as well.

It seems that people get incredibly hung up on this “But the Deathwatch fight aliens!!!” aspect of Deathwatch (the game). Of course the people who say this are 100% correct – the Deathwatch do fight aliens, and in a catch-all generic play-anywhere game about the Deathwatch organisation it would be completely normal to never fight any Chaos or human forces (unless those humans were under the influence of aliens). But Deathwatch (the game) isn’t just about the Deathwatch (the organisation). It has its own contained narrative, and is as much about the goings on within the Jericho Reach as it is about the Deathwatch (the organisation). The setting is the framework upon which the whole game hangs, and thus everything that is created either fits within or expands upon that framework. Eldar aren’t included because the Eldar play no role (or no overt role) within the Jericho Reach. They do play a role in the Koronus Expanse, so that’s why they’re in Koronus Bestiary and not Mark of the Xenos.

As I’ve repeated several times already in this thread, you don’t have to like the setting they’ve chosen, and you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to. You can do whatever you want with this game, and invent whatever rules you like. But please stop acting surprised or, worse, victimised over the idea that what you want might not fit 100% with what FFG have done with the setting. All the various options for including Eldar have been discussed above me, so I won’t repeat them except to say that no one is forcing you to do anything.

BYE

Do you now see how it's not FFG's fault for producing shoddy product...it's YOUR fault for buying it! How do you like that?

What shoddy product would that be Zappiel? And where exactly did I say it was the fault of players?

BYE

I haven't bought a single product from FFG and considered it shoddy. Given, I didn't buy my group's copy of Ascension, whose quality is debatable... but the books I personally bought? They've been good. Have there been issues? Sure, but that's what happens when you play RPGs, you find issues.

HB: well, as the thread is called "New DW Bestiary," we seem to be discussing the failure of MoX (which i've previously defended, by the way). It seems folks find the general lack of xenos distressing in a game wherein the xenos make up the bulk of the expected adversaries.

And, as you've repeated several times in this thread already, players don't have to use the books if they don't want to; which implies that if they've already made the purchase, and then complain, that's their fault. Really, are we going too fast for you?

And Gaire: (geah! i gotta respond to everybody all at once!) Yes! I agree! I too am proud of the DW books I own, despite the issues (and let us not delve too deeply into MoX)

...but...I clearly haven't bought them all...nor will I...and this thread (and others similar) are the attempts by folks who play and enjoy the game to improve the product line, to point out what are hindrances, where there are problems......do we really expect FFG to make its games in a vacuum? To ignore customer feedback? Or is all customer feedback just whiny tripe? NOw, it's clear that some folks take this stuff personally, and lash out in defense of the game or gamemakers; but i doubt that's FFG's official position. I am not here to slag FFG; hell, i've defended the bastards on numerous occasions. But that being said, I'm not going to ignore their problems and shortfalls...i am really keen for this thing [DW, indeed the entire 40k line] to go the distance; and right now that's not looking too good.

I think the issue here is what qualifies as a "problem", because from a production standpoint I get why they made the choices they did. It makes for the most interesting game, and for the most usable foes.

Some people want more xenos, and that's fair, and there are ways for them to go about getting them. But saying that there aren't enough xenos to fight? Over 2/3's of expected enemies are xenos. And the DW focusing on killing aliens sure, but never once have they shied away from killing other threats as well, just like the ordo Xenos that the work with. If I'm not mistaken Eisenhorn was Ordo Xenos, yet he dealt with a **** lot of heretics and daemons.

That said I doubt FFG makes major decisions based on the small amount of Forum chatter they see, but I doubt they completely ignore it either.