Atma01 said:

As I've written earlier I haven't the time to homebrew rules. Of course there is time to make up some numbers but we won't have the time to game test them and to check (and double-check) if they work in concert with existing rules. In my opinion this is the job of the game designers, that's what I have paid for. Me and my group want to start playing right away. A fine story on top of that is a bonus but not mandatory to play as there is already a lot of other fluff for W40K out there.

It really doesn't matter if I like the fluff. We want to be flexible and use new (playtested) rules in all possible settings including, but not limited to the Jericho Reach.

They would be still tied to the Jericho Reach and this is my only concern.

I'm opposed to the idea that any game mechanic is tied to a specific location because this forces players to play in this specific location even if they don't like it.

Additional sidebars would help if this suggestions are practically manageable unlike the ones for using Grey Knights in DW which left many questions open.

Thank you for listen to my thoughts.

Well thank you for providing your thoughts. This is exactly what I am after. I'll add them to my summation for the AUDWFT tomorrow night (Aussie time). Then I can get more feedback on them without me distracting from the intent of this thread, and let further discussion commence from there.

Thats probably going to be all from me tonight folks. Hope you had or are having good weekends. Goodnight and may the Emperor protect.

Atma01

Kain: I appreciate that you don't like reach specific rules, but I would also appreciate less vehemance on your opposition. I happen to like that stuff because it allows charachters to be ultra customized. Those new options allows for much more specific niche charachters, if a player wants that. If not, then they don't have to be used. It only takes a couple cosmetic changes, like changing the title and maybe tweakng some minor things to make it apply to anywhere in the Impreium. Can we not agree that different things appeal to different people, and in this case they chose to try to appeal to people like me, trusting that people like you would take or leave what they want? I dont like or use everything either, the books are big and none of it is compulsory. When this thread started, I never imagined there would be so much anger and bitterness about stuff that is easy to just work around. I do want to take issue with one thing you said though. When you say you dont have time to houserule, it's a little like telling your classmates you dont have time to do your homework. That's one of the responsibilties of gming. Thats one of the things a gm needs to build time into their preparation for. It doesnt need to be extravagant, usually it happens on the fly in my group. We encounter something that the rules dont adequately cover, I come up with a solution, and if my players have any issues we discuss it, and if necessary, we vote. Its exactly as difficult as one makes it. So, to atma01, I do like the specific stuff, it's unique and interesting and for creative gm's, its easy to modify for other uses. Thank you for your time and attention.

Lionus said:

When it would be the only case no one would care, but DW has totally changed after MoX with only trying to appeal one group of players. Coincidentally it first changed when some well known posters started their freelance work, the same people who are trying to convince everyone that roleplaying should work only this and no other way.

Well, consider me shocked.

No-1 here actually slammed somebody? For having an opinion...? You came across as so much more reasonable than that.....man, I am literally in shock right now....you attack Kain because he stated (rightly) that the Achilus Assault was 'fluff-only' and because he uses the terms 'fluff' and 'crunch'...is that right? hmmm....

(next, ak is gonna rant on about something meaningless then insult everybody for no good reason....of all the things that could never happen, no-1 rising to the fight....whew! and i ain't kiddin' ... i be shocked...)

And, let us be completely fair, here: Kain is clearly trying to tone his tone down, so how 'bout cutting him just a tad of slack, yes?

(and Kain: good on you for trying to stay civil - keep at it!...lessee if i can do the same....)

It's been put to me to present the page numbers in the corebook which refer to this being a space marine game....hmmm.....y'know, I was bein' tongue-in-cheek when i posted that particular sentence...cause i thought it obvious that the game did NOT push one setting...i thought it PLAINLY obvious, like, first page obvious....good ol' Allen Merrett (sp!?), in his jaunty introduction, makes no mention of any jericho reach...no no....talks on and on 'bout space marines, though....on and on...like he's got a thing for them, or somethin'...

Then, there's the VERY NEXT PAGE...go ahead, look it up, I'll wait....

ready?

...yeah, you see it, don't you? That whole 40k blurb we've all read 1000 times....hmmm, lottsa grimdarky goodness there, but - wait! - not a single mention of any jericho reach anywhere....

Now, to be fair, we find first mention of jericho on the NEXT page (once, first paragraph, then that's it for a goodly long while.....like, seriously, until the jericho reach chapter at the end of the book)

So....which of our two opposing groups are correct??? I purchased my deathwatch material with the understanding that it was supported by GW, that it was official, and that it was a roleplaying game about space marines. Those were the conditions under which i agreed to consume this product. Now, a year and a half on, you're telling me: "No! You poor heretic! You have made a mistake! This is the Jericho Reach game - we only provide material for the Jericho Reach game...anyone not accepting the FFG setting content has failed to grasp the concept...submit yerself for summary execution and have a nice day!

Apparently, when i type stuff, i sound like a jerk, so I'm gonna let this rest for a bit and hope y'all don't get another big hate-on...but i only type what i'd say face to face, with no revision, review, or editing. And my real-life friends haven't punched me in the head for, oh, days...

But i should end on a positive note....related to the thread....so, yeah: Santiago has a damned fine point! Has this been addressed by anyone anywhere?

Oh, and i just recalled another thing: Atma, good on you for wading in! (provided yer intentions are spotless, o'course....); but, really, friend: you don't see how we've come to the conclusion that Deathwatch is a space marine game...you don't see how we've come to the conclusion that Deathwatch is a space marine game...uuummmmmm........holy hell, how do i answer that????? Well, go for the obvious - ok....the space marines on the cover kinda gave it away....but, yeah, besides that, I guess I had to deduce that FFG's use of the term "deathwatch" was co-opted from GW's use of the term....since GW Deathwatch = space marines, I guess that's where MY 'confusion' arose......

Oh, and to clarify: I'm not sayin' anything nasty to anyone in particular, so don't take me words personal, if you please. Thanx! And would it be too loaded of a statement for me to say: "have a nice day!" (probly...)

In what way did the line change after MotX? I guess I didn't notice. Other than the next 2 books were setting books, but thats part of any RPG line, as a matter of fact, i remember there being a pdf called march of war or something like that released before the core rulebook that listed the first books, that were planned and Achilus Crusade was one of the ones on there, so it was planned this way from the beginning. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but the core rulebook dedicates 16 pages to the imperium, covers no worlds in detail, only organiizations and classes of worlds and other broad strokes. Likewise, 16 pages are dedicated to the deathwatch in general, all of which is very generic and broad without any depth on many subjects. Chapter 12 on the jericho reach however is 34 pages, longer than both others put together and contains not only the most detailed map of any subject in the book at all, but a great deal of specific info on many aspects within the reach, history, politics, unique indivduals, and a good bit of detail on several worlds, regions of space and particular warzones battles and enemies. If anyone needs more convincing the writers intended the game to be set in the jericho reach, open your deathwatch book, any deathwatch book to the cover page in front or back, you will find a stylized map of the jericho reach, and on the back cover, second paragraph from the bottom, it says to drop players in the crusade with a complete starting adventure, which takes place in the jericho reach. All this being said, the beauty of an RPG is that its limited only by the imagination of those involved. Anyone, at any point is free to do whatever they want with or without it. I've played games where the entire system and universe ground up was an invention of the gms imagination. And the adventure from the core rulebook? I ran it not being in the orpheus salient but the canis salient by changing only a couple words, just because that fit my story better. Any or all of this is exactly as difficult as we want to make it. And its litany of war, i just looked t up, check it out its in the support section from the main page. I guess my point is that its too easy to change things to fit our own idea of what should be, just a few words. As gms, we have more power than the god emperor over this universe, so this arguing is pointless

Lionus said:

HERETIC!!!

Zappiel said:

Yeah... sorry about that... it's been a bad few weeks for a variety of completely unrelated reasons, and I'm really quite irritable at the moment. I shouldn't have let myself press post (2/3rds of the posts I write for this forum end up being deleted rather than sent... this managed to slip through my self-imposed filter).

Once again thank you for the feedback guys. I am collating as much as I can to put up a post in my feedback thread for general consumption and response. Should be up in a little bit.

And thank you for attempting to keep it civil. Given what I was seeing before and how fired up people are getting over this I can see that you are all making concessions (on your tone, not your stance, this is fine and very acceptable, thank you!) here and that is appreciated.

And Zap please believe me that I am trying to do this with honest intentions. I saw what was happening, didn't like it, thought that maybe I can help, and just want us all to be able to play and talk together without any bad blood getting in the way. And thank you for the page references.

A one thing I would like to point out, and I will try to cover this in my collation for the other thread, I don't entirely understand why you believe that. I understand partially, and that I why I am asking about it. So I have clarity. And with how people are disagreeing with you (I am not taking sides on this let me make that clear now), others clearly don't understand why you believe that either. Which is why I want to try and explain it to others, so we can all see how it was arrived at, and see if we can work out how we can go about a solution that is amicable for everyone.

Lionus, buddy, please for the love of the Emperor. Paragraphs. PLEASE. I am gaining Insanity points here. That is all I will ask of you.

So stay classy bros. I hope to have something we can talk about up a little later in another thread since (and I am hoping this is true) this one seems to be calming down to the point where we can migrate the conversation and let others just talk about the book itself, in a vacuum as it were.

Atma01

No1: No worries! Glad we sorted that *(and sorry things aren't necessarily so great personally at the moment)...but you delete 2/3 of yer posts before posting, eh.....hehehe....and i should point out that I, too, hate the term 'fluff' as it is far too disparaging for my opinion...but i find meself using the damned term regardless, presumably 'cause it's a convenient shortform...ah well...

sorry about that, my financial situation has taken a quite sudden and severe step backwards, and now my only internet connection is through my phone, and it doesnt like the forum and about half the time it forces closed when I try to get fancy with punctuation and paragraphs.

Just read through it.

What I liked:

• the size of it
• Running Salient Campaigns: insightful write-ups on the theme and mood of Salient based stories, packed with inspiring ideas
• Missions: roughly two pages per mission, mostly very usable
• Complications: again, very usable
• Hive Fleet Dagon: extensive info on the Great Devourer
• Adventure Inside!: and not a bad one either

What I didn't like:

• redundant NPC descriptions: some of the VIPs were already described in Achilus Assault. I know that these two books are supposed to work independently, but still, this could have been handled better. Especially considering that campaign-focused GMs will be buying both books anyway.
• world descriptions: I would have wished for some details concerning the looks, sounds and such of the places. To be honest I could care less about the histories. The first thing my players ask me when they land on a new world is: what is it like? It doesn't have to be an adventure length description but a few vivid impressions would have been nice. Edge of the Abyss was quite good in that matter.
• pre-Errata weapon stats: tiny, but still

All in all it's a really good book. The chapters on campaigns alone are worth the money.

However, I like The Achilus Assault better.

My copy finally arrived, along with First Founding, Church of the Damned and The Chaos Commandment!

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Have a nice week end, mate.

Dok: thanx for the info! But i have a question: as someone who's read both, what makes Achillus Assault the superior book? (i ask cause a lotta folks have slagged AA, so i'd like to hear the other side of the story...)

Which book you prefer is really down to what sort of book you want. Do you want:

1. A high level overview and historical account of the Achilus Crusade and the role the Imperium in general is playing within the Jericho Reach?
2. A book that goes into more detail on the Deathwatch itself, and their goals/aims/motivations within the Jericho Reach, and how they interact within the Reach.

The Achilus Assault is the first one. The Jericho Reach is the second one.

BYE

Zappiel said:

I consider Achilus Assault the more... creative of the two.

• Nice stuff on the Jericho Gate
• A Dark Web of Worlds: I'll always fall for the big mystery ^^
• Tyranid Stages of Planetary Devastation: brilliant!
• The Mortis Thule
• Acheros Salient: The Stigmartus and the Charon Stars
• The Hadex Anomaly!
• Cool Info on the Tau and diplomacy with the Imperium

It's just full of vivid impressions and absurd ideas that will make my players go "Ahhh!". And very little that I didn't like.

Hmm... I ‘spose you are right about those points. The Mortis Thule is one of the things in the Jericho Reach I like the most, and the stages of Tyranid invasion is a great piece. Plus The Achilus Assault has my fav piece of kit – the Fire Wasp!!!

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

I've always wondered what it looks like.

The stages of tyranid takeover of a planet is virtually identical to the stages NO1 laid out in his massive 70 some page treatment on them on his site. I used it in my game, so it was nice they didnt change it much. Its pretty good info, although if you have his booklet, it has everything you need to run a great tyranid campaign with stats for brood nests and capillary towers and all sorts of awesome goodies. Thank you sir, Ive had alot of fun with it.

I should point out that the stages of a Tyranid invasion stuff in The Achilus Assault was written by John Dunn, not Nathan. I'm not trying to steal anyone's thunder with that, but more a case of credit where credit's due.

BYE

I don't know who wrote what in any book but I saw the stuff from his website and have been incorporating it for awhile, and its pretty comprehensive with both details and actual mechanics. More than in AA. I meant more that the unearthed apocrypha stuff has been incredibly useful for a long time. The stuff in the book was good though.Thanks for clearing that part up, tell mr. Dunn good work, the stuff in AA is very informative.

My copy of Jericho Reach only arrived yesterday by mail, so I did not have the time to look into it properly. But I was glad that I bought this book in the end (I was hesitating a bit before). The book is massive! So much text, so many ideas, so much to soak up and process. I hope I can discuss this book in depth in a few days (but I have to finish "Know no fear" first...)

Lionus said:

Would you have a link to the website?

Unfortunately, I don't know it offhand, but he has an entry on page 6, about halfway down, and theres a link on his signature line. The tyranid stuff is in UAdevourer. Theres ork and eldar stuff and whfrp 2nd edition stuff as well. Happy hunting!