I know that there has probably been discussion about this, but how much is Black Crusade an evolution of rules in Deathwatch.

There were 2 rules which struck me as different, Storm of Iron and Zealous Hatred

In Deathwatch Storm of Iron allows for a doubling of the amount of damage to a horde, causing massive damage. On the other hand, in Black Crusade it would be half of the BS bonus, which would mean, on average, 2 extra damage to hordes, which is much more toned down and modest (doubling would be pretty crazy)

The other one I thought was interesting was Zealous Hatred which in Deathwatch allowed someone to roll another dice. In Black Crusade it allows 1 damage. This actually makes more sense as a heretic with an autopistol could probably nick a Space Marine if he were lucky, but causing a massive wound with the same weapon would be outrageous.

It made me think that that would cause a change in how hordes cause damage. Rather than adding dice to hordes based on magnitude, the GM might just assign 1 damage per 10 points of magnitude. That would mean that it would take a loooong time to kill Space Marines, but that is kind of the point. Space Marines die after fighting lots of heretics after a long time, why should they be felled by a lucky shot.

Anyways, just my thoughts, I feel that the Space Marine rules in Black Crusade are probably due to tweaks in Deathwatch and I am curious how this might appear in the Deathwatch errata (which, strangely, has not been changed since May 2011)

peterstepon said:

We had a game convention here in Denver this weekend, Genghis Con (yeah that's really what it is called). I was privileged to be in a Deathwatch session ran by Ross Watson called "Honor of the Chapter." We used Black Crusade combat rules because they are "much better" and meant to be "compatible" with Deathwatch (Ross' words).

I wish I could provide concrete specifics but I did not keep my character sheet. Ross was subbing for a sick game-master on Friday night and needed the sheets for his scheduled Saturday morning session. Plus I do not own Black Crusade so I don't have much for comparison. I sure wish I could remember how my bolter damage totals were calculated... I think I rolled 2d10s, picked the higher number and then added *something* to the total (a d5? extra d5 based on the number of successes? Arg!! I played about 9 hours of WFRP on Saturday so Friday seems a long time ago).

I know I'm not really answering your question about "how much" but I thought this might shed a little light on the subject. But I think you are safe to assume that the lower damage totals for Storm of Iron and Zealous Hatred can be substituted in Deathwatch.

P.S. Ross is a fantastic GM and the scenario was a total kick in the pants!

The Zealous Hatred only does 1 damage if the attack wouldn't hurt them without it. If you are already damaging them it does a 1d5 critical damage effect to that location. Since changing over, it has made things more interesting. The amount of fatigue and other inconvenient effects the last carnifex had going before they finaly killed it was rather crazy. Though the changes to swift attack (and other rules) meant the assault marine killed a Hive Tyrant in a single charge. What it would have done to him if he hadn't would have been extremely unpleasant.

In general I have liked the changes, but a few things are a little strange so far.

I know this is off topic a little, but in the Black Crusade Rules if you have Lightning Attack, Preternatural Speed, a Jump Pack, and a Pair of Lightning Claws....well you win at everything. Seriously I had a character one turn murder a Daemon Prince by himself, it was.....awful.

So I'm still a little unsure as to whether or not I'm gonna switch my Deathwatch game over to Black Crusade rules, because my group contains a power gamer (who constantly tries to one up me....the GM) and if I make something that gives him a hard time it'll probably kill the entire team.

After some thought I must say I like combat systems in which multiple attacks are rolled seperately, just as I like games in which you roll for dodge or parry (unlike D&D). Combat feels less abstract and the speed gain isn't worth it.

Alex

TempestSatori said:

then keep the DW version of that and take the shooting/RF-ZH rules from BC?

ak-73 said:

I personally wouldn't introduce Zealous Hatred to Deathwatch (any of the other games, yes), as I feel that some of later bigger adversaries have such high wound totals exactly because of the old Righteous Fury rules and the silly damage of weapons in that. Under the new rules some of the monsters would probably just take too long to bring down (making them too hard and, more importantly, boring). If you somehow reshuffled the wound totals then a use of the new rules would probably be ideal.

For the record, I've come to the conclusion that multipliers work for Deathwatch more than any other of the game lines, in particular because of the scale that Space Marines are fighting at. They all have unnatural stats, and all of their most threatening enemies have them too. It's only if you bring in characters who are 'regular' humans that they really become a problem (and it's supposed to be an exceptional human who can stand up against, or alongside, a Space Marine in a fight). At which point it's good to consider whether it'd be better for your individual game to use bonuses or multipliers.

I will say, no system is perfect, which includes Black Crusade, but it remains to be seen if it's better overall, or just better for itself.

I do not believe that they translate into the rest of the 40K line unless you change other things. They don't mesh well with some talents and traits; the "hail of fire" approach that Orks use for ranged combat does not work and Orks will never hit; I dislike the changes to Swift and Lightning Attack -- I do not see what the point was. But then I also think the DH psychic power rules are infinitely superior to those in the other games, in which I seem to be a minority.

I tried implementing them into my DH and DW games and decided it was a bad idea. The experience of others may differ,

I completely agree with you on the DH psychic power manifestation system. I have always disliked the way it works in DW, i feel it takes so much of the flavor and interestingness out of the librarian specialty. Making it a simple skill test takes out alot of the randomness that i apprecated as being intrinsic to channeling the warp. Plus the overbleed is way cooler than not having the possibility, even though you could still use the rules to push or fetter. I think it could work out, it would just be alot of work for any gm and alot of collaboration with any players, and probably good advice from other gm's here. Anyone feel like starting that kind of project?

Well fettering and pushing are both good mechanics, because they genuinely represent that powerful psykers can pull off simple tasks without using their full power and facing the risk of tearing a great hole in the fabric of reality, or pouring on as much power as they can.

The only thing I really think is lacking from the non-DH style of psychic powers is the minor powers, because it's frankly nice to have a grab bag of little powers that you can call on at a moment's notice (don't care about the much-hated healing power, I love Flash Bang and Call Item). They provide variety to psykers in DH that you just don't find at early levels with any of the others. It wouldn't be too difficult to include minor powers in to the other psychic systems either, I can't fathom why it hasn't been done (aside from maybe keeping psykers from turning in to jack of all trade wizards with the right combos).

Blood Pact said:

It makes psykers too powerful. Can you imagine a psyker using Weapon Jinx all the time without restriction? Or even Sense Presence (well there go all my Tyranid ambushes) ? Oy vey.

Not being a jack-of-all-trades wizard is entirely the point.

In DH, the psyker can fill in for virtually any Career you don't have, using minor powers to do everything from heal to pick locks to dominate in combat.

Understandably FFG did not want RT and DW psykers to have that kind of role. Astropaths and Librarians are already incredibly powerful, letting them obviate other classes entirely (instead of kindasorta as they do) would be just as bad as the entirety of the Primaris Psyker from Ascension.

Yeah, I'm going to dispute that "dominate in combat" one. Minor powers don't let you do that, maybe if you're at the point where everyone is so weak that minor powers are all you have, and everyone else is still wearing cardboard armour and tatty robes for clothing.

And they could have still struck a fine balance with it, having a handful of little powers was hardly going to break the game.

God I hate this 'baby with the bathwater' mentality people have with mechanics. Just throw out everything, even the stuff that works fine and is cool, because some stuff offends thee! Off with Minor Power's head! Maybe you people do know White Wolf afterall, there's enough people on the Exalted forums who seem to hole the same opinion.

Minor powers aren't going to break the game. They're just going to obviate other players' character-niches. That can be a good thing if you're lacking a certain thing and need someone to fill in, but not where it actively rules other PCs obsolete. Maybe dominate combat was too strong a word, but if you don't think having Spasm, Weapon Jinx, avoiding damage with Distort Vision or sniping with Unnatural Aim can really turn a tide early on where other classes have to wait if they ever get anything comparable at all...I mean I just don't know. I don't call them game-breaking by any stretch, but they're definitely pretty useful and continue to be useful through the life of the game. The only real counter to that kind of jack-of-all-trades stuff is how terribly frequently DH psykers will have phenomena compared to how RT or DW handle phenomena.

Also the problem with Exalted is that its system is terribly screwed up on a foundational level. Lethality and defenses to instant death are messed up, and everything following them supports that awful paradigm. I don't think the 40k systems are anywhere near that level of basic issues, nor are the expectations the same. Especially because 40k hews to the mindset that even heroes logically will get killed terribly.