ktom said:

Of course if Organized Play got around to modifying their scoring system to accommodate for this reality it would go along way to fixing this 'problem'.

* No Modified Wins

* Strength of Schedule based off win percentage not points

As far as the topic at hand -- the worst thing about this announcement was their lack of details regarding what will be at GenCon this year. That was the critical piece of information that was left out.

From I could tell of the article, it looked like GenCon would have the same events as usual, they would just have their name changed to "North American Championship." That doesn't seem like the end of the world to me.

Though, I would like to know the breakdown on who gets to design cards this year.

Francisco G. said:

Francisco G. said:

I have to agree with Francisco. If all the Europeans, South Americans, and even those pesky Canadians still attend GenCon this year and participate in whatever new tournament FFG has planned, then it won't matter what they call this new tournament because it will still be in effect the worlds championship. I don't think anyone that plays the game really cares as much about the prize support as they do about the recognition of their peers. When there are 75+ people from all over the world playing at GenCon and what I'm guessing will be maybe half that at MN it's not hard to determine which tournament would be considered the greatest test of skill. I for one will try to make it to MN, but it's going to be tough to swing. I usually try to make a road trip to a regional outside of my state each year which (DC last year) and having to add MN will make three trips in one year to play a card game in a tough economy. I'm just not sure that it's going to be feasible.

Kennon said:

You're correct but FFG is forcing decisions that could lead to one failing. Some and maybe many more can only attend one of these and the planning for Gencon had to be completed before their announcement. I think everyone would be fine if they would have announced it in January. I am pretty certain that they knew their plans for this in January. It isn't something that just popped up.

Kennon said:

Exactly. I don't think we have lost anything; rather we've gained another (potentially) big tourney. While this decision may or may not negatively impact turnout at the GenCon tourney on the short term, I think there should be room for two substantial continental tournaments in North America, especially now that the game is in upswing.

All this discussion regarding European attendance is moot anyway, if you ask me. Let's face it: European participation at tourneys in North America was never going to be more than a smidgen anyway. While it is true that travelling to Roseville, Minnesota in November is probably a singularly bland prospect for Europeans (no offense intended), GenCon is still an attractive destination for Thrones players who can incorporate it into a longer holiday in the US.

As for flying the Euro champs to Worlds on the company's dime, I'll believe that when I see it. I won't hold my breath, though.

I guess it comes down to this:

Raise your hand if it moving to MN is going to make you more likely to go? Nickler, a couple of new MN players maybe...?

Raise your hand if it moving to MN is going to make you less likely to go? Sorry, even I have to raise my hand here and I am far from alone - weather, time of year, destination are all against it (sorry Dobbler, Roseville in November is apples to oranges to GenCon in August just as much as my basement is compared to MN).

I won't say I won't go - heck I went the first two years. Just that both years it was a maybe and it ended up working out (while living ONE state away) while GenCon is a for sure every year thing *shrug*

I don't want any part of aGoT OP to fail, but I would like the gun to be loaded. Say you usually got a dollar, and now got 10 cents...like Kennon said we would like either of those opposed to nothing...but that dollar sure would be better, and I would take a one-time failure of the 10 cents to get there *shrug again*

I hope it works, and we get the attendance that we would have gotten at GenCon (impossible to know). I just don't think it is unfair or 'unpatriotic' to bring out the obvious issues. I like parts of it (the qualifying, the longer OP 'season'), and know it is hard to balance that with the timing of GenCon.

Finally - to Mathlete, I have been in Roseville, MN and been in Wayne, NE in November...let's say I would take the lack of traffic, better weather (comparably), hotel quality to cost ratio, and cost of the guaranteed bars we go to here than there...but I agree I would rather be in Florida or something (but not LA - I can't handle your traffic anymore!) If we are lucky it will be in Minneapolis at least maybe?

rings said:

So pretty much your whole argument boils down to this: Minnesota sucks as a location to hold Worlds. You are looking at it strictly from a "geographical standpoint", which really omits a ton of factors that are improved by FFG holding it in their hometown on a weekend segregated from Gencon.

1) FFG's employees are spread very thin during Gencon. There has to be people running the floor exhibit/store, running demos, and running the tournaments. The dedication FFG has been able to give to administering and running the events has always been the bare minimum. Ktom has been regularly recruited to help judge the events, and last year there was a bunch of complaining about the way the events were run and the public dissemination of important information related to how the event would be ran regarding scoring and concessions/ties. By having the World Championships in Roseville, FFG can devote immensely larger amounts of manpower to running the events and promoting the "feel" that it is truly the World Championships. Here are some additional benefits that could arise from the extra manpower.

• Video Taping of championship games
• Up-To-Date tweeting or blogging of the events
• Formal interviews conducted by FFG of players with videos posted online. FFG already takes videos of Gencon that are posted online, but very few are dedicated to the World Championships due to lack of manpower.
• A captive audience for watching, congratulating and rewarding the champions. While there is generally a group of 10-20 people watching the final game, I could imagine that being doubled in Minnesota, truly giving the feel of a "championship game".
• Additional "participation" promotional items given to all attendees. 2011 Gencon - House Cards...bleh. 2011 Days of Ice and Fire - Card boxes, House Cards, a bag of other misc junk...better. I imagine 2012 Worlds will be much, much better. This is allowed by charging the $25 entry fee. Obviously FFG doesn't see a penny of the Gencon entry fees.

2) FFG will has already announced that they will be bringing other country's Champions to Minnesota.

We’re thrilled to announce that our partners from France, Germany, and Spain are arranging to send their national champions to compete in the FFG World Championships! We will update this list as it grows.

The cost for FFG, in partnership with the overseas companies, to bring players to Minnesota will be significantly less than it would be to bring them to Indy. It isn't so much flights (which I will consider a wash). It is more lodging and event registration. These costs should not be discounted. If downtown Indy rooms cost $200/night (which is possibly underestimation) and FFG can work out a deal with a local hotel to provide rooms for $50-$100/night, it is a huge savings and helps to allow for the expenditure to bring in multiple international players.

3) There is no "local" playgroup in Indianapolis. I think last year there was one or two players playing at Gencon who are from Indianapolis. The Minnesota meta has 10+ active members.

I think it is also important to note that you are a stickler for historical precedence. When the game shifted to the LCG format (and thus formalized the Melee format), you continued to recognize the Joust champion as the true champion instead of recognizing the overall champion. Many "old school" players did the same thing. From 2002 to 2007, Joust had been the only format played on a competitive level, thus old school players saw the game through the joust lens. Interestingly, most "new school" players who started after 2008 do not have the same mind set. They were not fighting years of perceiving the game a certain way. This Gencon debate is similar. Since 2003, Gencon has been the home of the World Championships. And now that it is changing it feels odd and slightly awkward, just like any change in our lives might feel. I'm guessing that a new player who starts playing the game in 2012 or later will have no qualms with the World Championships being held in Minnesota because they aren't fighting against 9 years of historical precedence.

Dobbler said:

Stop bringing logic to an argument on the interwebs! You should know that logic has no place on an internet forum!

Dobbler said:

To be fair with minnesota, in my Visa interview the interviewer did ask me "why in the world are you going to indianapolis!!!" xD

Dobbler said:

I don't see Chile or any country in southamerica there!! Then again, we still don't have any local store selling AGOT down here.

Dobbler said:

You could argue that given the big event that the gencon is, a small amount (equal or even less than what you are suggesting for housing and tickets for min) of money/discount/¿subvention? would make people (champions) more inclined to go to a tourney in the gencon since they can also go to the exhibit.

BTW, we book our room for 4 (a little cramped but still) for ~50 USD/ night a mile or so from the Gencon.

Dobbler said:

I think the problem for some of us (¿majority?) is not the change of things, is the lack of notice....especially for us international players, since we had to buy tickets, book accomodations, and apply for Visas a lot sooner than US locals.

I like your logic though, i just think some of the arguments are not the reason why some of us are sort of (not really) complaining.

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Francisco G. said:

I agree that the timing of the announcement leaves a bad taste in the communities mouth. This would have been the kind of announcement you make after Gencon 2011, or after Days of Ice and Fire 2011. Heck, even as many have noted, if the announcement was made prior to Gencon tickets going on sale, then that would have been acceptable.

Everything everyone has said is true, either on the pro, con, or non-issue side of this. But Kennon cuts to the heart of things: it is in our best interests as a community for all of these events to be successful. So don't boycott any of the events you can, and want, to go to just out of spite.

In the end, has anyone ever been to big AGoT event that wasn't fun, no matter what it was called or what title was at stake?

Hahaha....i don't think there is anyone trying to intentionally boycot any FFG event....if anything i'm encouraging people to go!!

My initial comment was more because after buying my way to the gencon (mostly for the agot tourney) i read the news (not the extensive one) and was scared that there was no tourney in the gencon. Now that i know there will be, i'm satisfied, and hope a lot of people go to indy.

My prediction is that we could expect ~100 people this gencon. Since the tv series has brought a lot of people into the game (including us) and the learning curve for being confident enough to participate in a tourney (rules wise) is steep, this is the year where 2011 players will make an appearance in mass.....one can hope

Francisco G. said:

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Mathias Fricot said:

I'm not saying people don't make mistakes. Everyone does. But that shouldn't stop you from having the confidence to play in an organized tourney. It's not like you're going to embarrass yourself by making the same mistakes everyone makes at one time or another.

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ktom said:

Exactly. If I was both rich and unmarried, I'd totally go to both those events. If I was either rich or or unmarried, I'm pretty confident I could make one. Since I'm neither, y'all will have to manage without my glorious presence.

As for rules, I think you knowing the rules well helps you winning, but it certainly isn't a precondition for participating.

Ratatoskr said:

I doubt this change will have a big impact on GenCon, but I do think it reflects a failure in FFG communications. I don't mean to blow this out of proportion, but there was no clear explanation as to *why* this change was necessary, nor any transparency about the thought process involved in the decision. FFG failed to engage the other stakeholders (namely the players) about the decision or attempt to prepare the players for this change. I don’t want to overstate this, but it reminds me of FFG’s approach to communications in 2008, when the company suddenly rotated out all the old CCG cards. Basically, the message to the customers is “here’s what we’re doing, hope you’re happy—but if you’re not, get over it.”

To be fair, I think there are some good reasons for removing the “world championship” title from GenCon.

• GenCon hasn’t ever been a “world’s best” tournament. To say it’s a “World Championship” is by all accounts a complete misrepresentation of the event. There is nothing worldly that 90% (I’m guessing) of the people who participate are US-based. And you can’t blame low international attendance on lack of interest outside the US for AGOT, like you might for the Baseball World Series. AGOT is very popular outside the US, and it is painfully self evident that GenCon is *not* a world’s best tourney.
• As the non-US-based AGOT communities have grown, the “World Championship” title has become a bit more contentious. Dobbler, I believe, noted with praise awhile back that Tourney Stahleck players in 2011 exhibited none of the “chip-on-the-shoulder” sentiment that some of them had in 2010. In other words, people didn’t complain last year that Stahleck wasn’t regarded the *real* world championship, even though Stahleck more than any other tourney would best qualify for the title if we used objective standards based on diversity of attendance. Despite European composure, there's been plenty of discussion on these boards and elsewhere about the strangeness of calling GenCon the "World Championship."
• Increasingly, AGOT players recognize that GenCon is not a real “worlds” tourney. For example, observing this trend, I tried to use “GenCon” in place of “World’s” in the most recent Thrones Times newsletter. I’ve noticed others, including the 2 Champs and 1 Chump podcast, pay some attention to this point as well.
• People attend GenCon for a variety of reasons. AGOT is often only a marginal factor in the decision.

To sum up the above points, removing the “world championship” title from GenCon isn't going to make it less worldly than it already is. Given that a number of people attend GenCon for non-AGOT-related reasons, I’m also skeptical that a name change will have a significant negative impact on attendance. This event will remain the most widely attended, and therefore prestigious, tourney in the US. If FFG decides to cancel the “champion design” award for the GenCon champion, that will be significant. But as far as I can tell, this is only a name change.

Bottom line: Had FFG simply announced that it would henceforth refer to GenCon as the “North American National Championship,” I think almost everyone here would be fine with the decision.

The question then is “what is so bothersome about this name change,” because I too agree it is frustrating. Going back to the communications issue I started with, the problem I think some people have is that this change feels fake or over-controlling…a marketing ploy designed to push people to attend an event they wouldn’t otherwise attend. Rather than creating new incentives for players to attend an existing event (for example, some amazing new award beyond the cruddy custom house cards), FFG is branding an event as something that it clearly is not. This is the type of marketing that, although perhaps well-intentioned, is off-putting. I'm not saying it won't work...I do expect more people to attend the "World Champion" than "Random Tourney X Held at FFG Headquarters," but that doesn't change the way the information was presented.

On a personal note, I’m also a little disappointed that the NYC meta wasn’t consulted on this. I realize the Black Friday event doesn’t attract a huge number of people, but I had planned to grow our local event to a truly national event over the next year or two...targetting 40+ this year (by moving the dates, increasing engagement with other metas, etc.). I will now have a much harder time expanding participation. The short-term result is likely to be less local enthusiasm—not more—for NYC players in November. I realize that a large, FFG-sponsored event in November might prove a great long-term move (5 years from now), but it would have made sense to reach out to those who would be affected to see if we have creative solutions or ideas to help work this in as least disruptively as possible.

Twn2dn said:

~Well except for calling North America a country .

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Mathias Fricot said:

nope.

2C1C make mention that only the overall champion is the only one who gets to design a card at Gencon, but I can't find that written anywhere. Can someone provide a link?

Here's what I was going by. Though, on second glance, "top winners" could potentially still mean Joust, Melee and overall.