herozeromes said:
This tells me that there will never be things like Jedi Training, or That Thing's Operational.
Just sayin'…
Decipher rights
MarthWMaster said:
herozeromes said:
This tells me that there will never be things like Jedi Training, or That Thing's Operational.
Just sayin'…
Ha!
I think he was referring to the actual Jedi Training test cards and the old Objectives where in the swccg u actually had to pass Jedi Tests to finish yur training, you could buff out a super Luke or Leia or go ahead and turn a no name character into a decent Jedi provided he had enough Ability in the force. Just cuz this card has the name Jedi Training doesnt mean the same thing or come near to the fun that the Test mechanic had.
And he is right, the way the old game played it did feel at times like you were living scenes from the movie in many different ways. Just slapping the name Jedi Training on a mission card doesnt mean your gonna feel that way again.
yagyu said:
I think he was referring to the actual Jedi Training test cards
Granted. But it's way funnier to pretend he just wanted a card called "Jedi Training," so that's what we're gonna do.
herozeromes said:
cleardave said:
Remember kids, SWCCG (released in 1995) didn't give us everything we wanted out of the gate;
"Anikan's Lightsaber", the matching lightsaber for Luke, did not appear until the Hoth expansion, a year after the Premiere Set
Chewie and R2D2 did not appear in Premiere, and instead were released in the first expansion, A New Hope
Executor, Jedi Tests, and Yoda came with the Dagobah expansion in 1997, but you could not train Luke up to a Jedi Knight until Death Star II in 2000
Boba Fett did not appear until Cloud City in 1997
Third Anthology, released in 2000 provided Objectives to make viable decks to recreate the Battle of Yavin from either perspective
…and so on
Yes, but it did give the feeling like waiting for the next movie to come out. The expansions were released as the movies were and it was brilliant. The main thing I DON'T like about the new LCG is that what we have seen is thematically jumbled. You have New Hope cards on the table with Return of the Jedi cards right out of the gate. This tells me that there will never be things like Jedi Training, or That Thing's Operational. At least, not in ways that make playing feel like the movies.
I really don't know how you do that. No matter what, things are going to be jumbled and not 'thematically' correct. Nor is any card game - which is part of the fun. Like they said today, you can send Boba Fett out to capture Admiral Ackbar…
herozeromes said:
cleardave said:
I take it you never set up a Force Drain in the Carbonite Chamber with Vader (with a lightsaber for the extra +1) and played "All Too Easy" on the Light Side player that came to stop you? If you were running the "Dark Deal" Objective, that one play burns your opponent for 8 of his 60 Life Force. You're totally re-enacting the occupation of Cloud City in that Objective, especially if you play "Cloud City Occupation".
I really don't want to sound like I'm being glib, but were you playing the game wrong?
This is the kind of thing that I LOVED about SWCCG. They allowed you to recreate situations in Star Wars with the chance of a different outcome. It totally nailed the feel of the movies. You COULD easily make a generic deck that spammed non-unique characters, but really the most fun was when you created a scenario like Jedi Training or making the Second Death Star Operational and then having the opportunity as a Rebel to blow it out of the sky. The reason that no other game has touched this feeling is because they just put Star Wars pictures on games that could have been anything. Seriously, WotC could have been a World War II game.
I actually found the SWCCG worked better outside of a tourney environment, when you and a buddy conspired to build compatible decks so they would interact (even if it was as vague as 'I'm building a Light Side Tatooine deck')
It really was a MASSIVELY thematic game though. Separating sites and systems was genius, and meant you didn't have the afforementioned issue with characters and starships fighting. There were just so many things going on, so many possibilities, and all of them entrenched in the Star Wars universe. What's not to love about training Yoda up to be a pilot, chucking him in an X-Wing and sending him off on an attack run to blow up the Death Star? Or reanacting the Battle of Hoth with less At-Ats and having Echo Base stormed by Wampas. Just so many cool moments.
The thing that really screwed it up was bloody Episode 1 and the corresponding garbage that came with it. Had the game constantly moved forward (with expanded universe stuff) or just kept filling in blanks in the original trilogy, there wouldn't have been any problems.
Also, Lucas got greedy. Shock.
Sausageman said:
I actually found the SWCCG worked better outside of a tourney environment, when you and a buddy conspired to build compatible decks so they would interact (even if it was as vague as 'I'm building a Light Side Tatooine deck')
Yes - I totally agree with this (and everything else you said in your post).
SWCCG wasn't so great if you only built and played against tournament/the most powerful decks. In fact this limited the game to quite a small set of deck types as well as reducing the thematc feel of the game. It also meant many interesting cards never saw much play.
The huge potential for so many varied thematic decks was one of the things that made the game great for me.
Mixing Episode 1 with 4, 5 & 6 never appealed to me - although I loved the expanded universe elements.
spalanzani said:
MarthWMaster said:
herozeromes said:
This tells me that there will never be things like Jedi Training, or That Thing's Operational.
Just sayin'…
Ha!
Touche'
But seriously, this doesn't "do" anything in the game. SWCCG's Jedi Training was a very specific set of tasks that needed to be accomplished. Heck, there was one that you had to run to, moving from location to location in order to complete it, all while the Dark Side player had the option to move it every turn. THIS card just says "Jedi Training" and does absolutely nothing different than any other objective (except for the 5 Pre-set cards that come with it).
That's one of the things that is really bugging me about the objectives, and location enhancements as well. They don't do anything. A card called Dagobah Training Grounds should interact with Luke in some way, or Jedi units in general. All it does at present is give you an additional resource. That's it. In other words, it's a blank, flavorless card that will most likely have identical gameplay to other cards, the only difference being which card set they each occupy. This, more than anything, I feel makes the game seem like just cards with Star Wars pictures on them, rather than being a Star Wars game .
MarthWMaster said:
That's one of the things that is really bugging me about the objectives, and location enhancements as well. They don't do anything. A card called Dagobah Training Grounds should interact with Luke in some way, or Jedi units in general. All it does at present is give you an additional resource. That's it. In other words, it's a blank, flavorless card that will most likely have identical gameplay to other cards, the only difference being which card set they each occupy. This, more than anything, I feel makes the game seem like just cards with Star Wars pictures on them, rather than being a Star Wars game .
But remember, this is the Core set. It's a starting point to build on, an introduction to the basic game mechanics, and an entry point for potential non-card gamers. They'll start it simple and work up to super thematic but possibly a bit more complex type cards. Look at Lord of the Rings LCG, etc. for examples.
One thing you can't ever take away from FFG is that their games are always super themey. Most of my all-time great thematic/epic game moments came from FFG games. It's one point I have no doubt FFG will get right, especially once we get past the introduction set and start getting the expansion packs.
There are alreasy effects on the objectives. I remember one of my objectives gave me "+1 reserve" which meant I had a hand size of 8 instead of 7. Tailoring particular effects to objectives instead of the hand cards gives some uniqueness without being over powering. Since I can only ever have 3 objectives out at a time and cycling them (as far as we know) is a bad thing, how I choose what's in there can cause interesting effects in the game. Extra balance too with the pods, have a pretty powerful objective be paired with 1 strength 1 force icon weenies.
Mattr0polis said:
But remember, this is the Core set. It's a starting point to build on, an introduction to the basic game mechanics, and an entry point for potential non-card gamers.
The Core Set determines the direction things will take in addition to providing the bulk of the cards for the first year or so. So, if the game starts out in a way I don't like, why would I invest and then later hope that the expansions fix the game?
herozeromes said:
Mattr0polis said:
But remember, this is the Core set. It's a starting point to build on, an introduction to the basic game mechanics, and an entry point for potential non-card gamers.
The Core Set determines the direction things will take in addition to providing the bulk of the cards for the first year or so. So, if the game starts out in a way I don't like, why would I invest and then later hope that the expansions fix the game?
I'm with Mattr0polis on this one. The fact that, as Karrde said, some objectives in the core do have other abilities indicates that it is something they will continue to develop on. Also, core sets are "supposedly" meant to whet the appetite of the hard core gamers while delivering an enjoyable experience to the more casual (but not truly casual) players. From that perspective, I can see how they would have special abilities on some objectives but not all of them. It makes it less overwhelming.
Also, I feel that having some objectives that only produce resources could possibly be a breath of fresh air so that you can just concentrate on the game play without 6 different effects affecting the playing field at one time, all the time.
Just my few cents.
I agree, I think in this instance particularly they'll want to create a base game that has the base mechanics, to entice the largest possible group into the game, a large proportion of whom, I'd anticipate, aren't the sort of gamers who would be into a game that is too complex. The time for layers will come with expansions, once that massive group has been successfully enticed. So I'm expecting to see objective cards that have more about them, stuff to complete and what-not, in the expansions.
Every game ever starts out as low on rules/text as they can, and then build on the complexity. You want to allow as many people as possible to be able to pick the game up at any time and not be overwhelmed.
Yeah, you might lose some hard-core gamers if the experience isn't rich enough, but I doubt that will happen with a FFG game
It is a balancing act a little though…
Contrary to my prior understanding, I've only seen one objective so far (Shadows of Dathomir) that does not have some secondary effect. The effects may not be the most complex cards in existence, but they certainly do more than produce resources and take x amount of damage.
Im reserving my final judgement till i try it out, but i still feel we didnt need another pvp card game, i think the x-wing mnis woulda been enough, and am sad no coop or solo, but if enough ppl push for solo ffg might still make it, they do seem to pay attention to the fans so, heres hoping.
spalanzani said:
I agree, I think in this instance particularly they'll want to create a base game that has the base mechanics, to entice the largest possible group into the game, a large proportion of whom, I'd anticipate, aren't the sort of gamers who would be into a game that is too complex. The time for layers will come with expansions, once that massive group has been successfully enticed. So I'm expecting to see objective cards that have more about them, stuff to complete and what-not, in the expansions.
So what you people (as you in the ones who're okay with game so far) are saying is, basically, that it's okay to make a simplified game, low on thematic game mechanics, just because it's Star Wars and apparently this generation of Star Wars fans are incapable of playing a game that's harder than munchkin?
And i'm not trying to bash FFG, i get why they're doing it. I'm just sad that they're aiming ONLY for the cheddar and not for the big opportunity that a Star Wars LCG could be.
And to be honest, i think a non-gamer would be more thrilled about going to dagobah and actually do some jedi training, messing with yoda or retreiving a x-wing from the swamps instead of getting "+1 card in hand".
Bolfa Fluffbelly said:
So what you people (as you in the ones who're okay with game so far) are saying is, basically, that it's okay to make a simplified game, low on thematic game mechanics, just because it's Star Wars and apparently this generation of Star Wars fans are incapable of playing a game that's harder than munchkin?
This is not what anyone in this thread has said at all, but see what you want to see I guess.
The game is definitely fun and very strategic, not overly simplified. I've been playing it a lot with bootleg demo decks and it's greatly fun and very replayable.
It's just better to start out with the core mechanics of the game system and build out from there. This is exactly what FFG did for Lord of the Rings LCG and I'm assuming many of their other LCGs. Even Decipher Star Wars CCG started off very basic compared to where the game went with later expansions.
Lord of the Rings' core set was very straight forward, still very fun but mainly there to teach you the new system, and now the game has built off of that and has some outstandingly great depth and thematics with the adventure packs.
I'm sure this game will be no different. I'm already super intrigued with the bounty hunting/capturing system that they've mentioned a few times and is on Princess Leia's card. And that's something that's in the core set. I'm sure there's other greatly thematic stuff that we'll get also either in the core set or once the adventure packs start coming out, but you still have to start somewhere.
Bolfa Fluffbelly said:
So what you people (as you in the ones who're okay with game so far) are saying is, basically, that it's okay to make a simplified game, low on thematic game mechanics, just because it's Star Wars and apparently this generation of Star Wars fans are incapable of playing a game that's harder than munchkin?
No. I'm not okay with it, but what I'm saying is I accept it is to be expected, in order to get a lot of people into the game who aren't used to tabletop gaming of any description they're going to want to make it a straightforward game (not "easy", not necessarily "simple", but certainly straightforward. Such as the fuss they made at first of X-Wing having "intuitive" rules).
I'm not happy with it, I just accept it. Overwhelming people with rules, forcing them to keep track of upwards of a dozen card effects at once each round is not going to tempt people into putting the consoles away and giving this a try.
Mattr0polis said:
Lord of the Rings' core set was very straight forward, still very fun but mainly there to teach you the new system, and now the game has built off of that and has some outstandingly great depth and thematics with the adventure packs.
This is a very salient point. I would say, to continue the analogy, what we've actually seen of this game in the demo videos so far is the equivalent of LotR played using the pre-constructed Tactics deck. Who would buy that game if they'd only done that?
As one of the people who are fine with this version I don't see why anyone wants their theme coming from the rule book. The cards are there to provide the theme with their interactions and abilities. Rulebooks that impose theme end up being the hot mess that the Decipher CCG rulebook was. I loved the Decipher CCG but it was far from perfect and at the competative level theme took a back seat to whatever degenerate combo that had not got a silver bullet yet.
We've seen some simple demo decks for the game but in my opinion we've seen enough of a structure to be able to say that the theme will be able to be represented fairly easily because the core rules are pretty straight forward.
The only complaint I have with the current rules is the interaction of space and ground units.
Mattr0polis said:
Even Decipher Star Wars CCG started off very basic compared to where the game went with later expansions.
Not exactly. The complex rule system and mechanics that determined the feel of everything to come were in place with the Premiere release. The only thing that later expansions added were new types of cards that added sub-rules to the already complex system.
What I'm trying to say is: If the Objectives don't DO anything now, then how can they release Objectives later that DO something without power creep and obsolescence becoming a problem with the Core release? You could still win a game of SWCCG with Premiere only decks against other expansions even though there were some very devious strategies introduced later. If new releases actually make the Objectives DO something, then the entire core box will be nothing but Bantha Fodder.
herozeromes said:
Mattr0polis said:
Even Decipher Star Wars CCG started off very basic compared to where the game went with later expansions.
Not exactly. The complex rule system and mechanics that determined the feel of everything to come were in place with the Premiere release. The only thing that later expansions added were new types of cards that added sub-rules to the already complex system.
What I'm trying to say is: If the Objectives don't DO anything now, then how can they release Objectives later that DO something without power creep and obsolescence becoming a problem with the Core release?
All card games of this type have power creep. The key is to make it creep slowly. IMO FFG does a very good job of this with the other LCGs by having cards which give you more options within a narrow focus.
herozeromes said:
You could still win a game of SWCCG with Premiere only decks against other expansions even though there were some very devious strategies introduced later. If new releases actually make the Objectives DO something, then the entire core box will be nothing but Bantha Fodder.
you must have been playing a different SWCCG than I was. Taking a premier only deck to play against anything that was released after Cloud City was an invite to get curbstomped, quickly. And it was made even worse when Special Edition, objectives, and the EP packs were released. SWCCG had a huge amount of power creep over the course of the game.
herozeromes said:
What I'm trying to say is: If the Objectives don't DO anything now, then how can they release Objectives later that DO something without power creep and obsolescence becoming a problem with the Core release? You could still win a game of SWCCG with Premiere only decks against other expansions even though there were some very devious strategies introduced later. If new releases actually make the Objectives DO something, then the entire core box will be nothing but Bantha Fodder.
We haven't seen any Rebel objectives. We haven't seen any Imperial Navy objectives. Etc etc etc. I assume we haven't seen all of the Jedi objectives, nor all the Dark Jedi objectives. Who knows whether the demo was kept with purposefully simpler cards, to keep it from needing an hour or more to demo just one round of the game?
We don't know yet whether core set objectives don't do anything.