lately my friends have nagged me and calling my sorcerer OP

Although i dont understand why they think this because if it can get hurt, its not OP and my character has lost a leg and both of my ears twice now

so please i wish to convice them i am not OP and they are begging to GM that i need to be nerfed. So please give me evidence that prove sorcerers are not OP

What exactly are they saying makes you OP? Sorcerers are OP is about as constructive and specific as "Humans are OP!"

However, the argument "if it gets hurt, it's not OP" isn't true. If they think you do too much damage a round, the fact that you take damage later is irrelevant.

A tzeench aligned sorcerer with bolt of change is a bit ridiculous that's for sure. I changed up that power to be 3d10 damage instead of Xd10 damage because a push on it with someone with decent psy rating = TONS of damage.

Yes, bolt of change is insanely nasty. But it's BOLT OF CHANGE! It's the nastiest direct damage power of the GOD OF SORCERERS! If it's not a tank busting mega bolt of doom, it's not worthy of the name.

Also, more game-balance wise, it's a single bolt. You only get one, and it's a simple dodge test (or field save) to completely negate it. Pretty balanced, as it stands, IMO. At 3d10 (No change from Psy rating at all?) it's... it's not worth 500 xp. Winds of Chaos gets you almost that much damage, and that ***** is an opposed agility test against a sorcerer's focus power test. And if you like Tzeentch, it comes with extra fire!

On Topic: It would help if you also tell us what the others are playing, alongside their complaints. If everybody else is a human non-psyker, and you're a sorcerer, and the complaint is that you outshine them in combat... Well, the gm might want to change his approach a bit, but tbh both Psykers and Space Marines are very combat-focused, and are meant to truly shine in the violence. Something that is both will dominate the battlefield, completely by design.

On the downside, it's got all the risk of a psyker with all the subtlety of a space marine.

I'm using psy rating to boost the penetration of bolt of change and keeping the mutation part. So it can still be a tank buster bypassing all armor if their psy rating is high enough it just won't do 12d10 damage on a push! Had our sorcerer do 60's damage in a shot and was like OK this is a little much

Eh. That's a bit too nasty a nerf in my book. 3d10 kills no tank, armor or not. Nor does it deal with Daemons. And, once again, at 3d10 (maybe mutating), if I'm already pushing, why would I EVER use this power now?

I could just get Winds of Chaos. That's 2d10+Psy rating+Corruption. That's most likely both more maximum AND minimum damage than bolt of change now. It ignores armor completely (Warp Weapon), it's also got felling (presuming you kept that on Bolt of change) AND, since I'm presumably aligned to Tzeentch, it's got flaming. Which is SOOO nasty. Hell, since it's 200 xp chaper, I could even emulate the corruption (and eventually chaos spawn transforming) aspect of Bolt of Change by using what I saved to buy host of fiends. Long as they catch fire, they start rolling WP and every time they fail, they get CP points. Hit 10 and it's hello spawny. And unlike bolt of change, I can combine this with other WP inducing aspects, like Fear ratings or Abhorrent ward!

All this, AND it hits both multiple enemies AND requires an opposed test rather than a simple dodge. And it doesn't allow a dodge or a parry! No sir. You oppose with your agility (no skill or equipment bonus for you!) and that's it. Fail, and since it's neither a bolt, barrage, storm or blast, you don't get to spend a reaction. You are smoked.

I'm sorry, but I see now this nerf is even remotely viable. And 60 points of damage? Not only is there PLENTY of things that can take that with a smile, it's not even outside the realm of average for your "I'm good enough to get Bolt of Change" character. It's a psy rating 5 minimum power that requires THE MARK OF TZEENTCH! It's in the same league as FLICKER. You know, the power that makes a psyker completely untouchable to anything but other psykers and Daemons? While still being fully capable of unleashing their full psychic might? Yeah, that one.

And you think 60 points of damage is a lot? Get any space marine worth a **** a solid weapon with a Daemon in it, and he'll deal 60 damage (after toughness) on anything but a Greater Daemon as a minimum! And he won't be stopped by a single dodge test either!

Hell, I could give you a starting character who scores 60 minimum with no talents on a good BS roll. It's called a space marine. With a legion heavy Bolter. Solid roll on that, and he's counting 1d10+12 6 times around. Hell, I could even make it nastier, with a bit of time. Space marine. Two-weapon wielder. Terminator armor. Dual reaper auto-cannons. Or maybe mix it up, combo a auto-cannon with something else, like a plasma cannon.

And that's not even touching on the fact that a Sorcerer could just take that force weapon of his, pick up lightning attack and then unleash that. Target rolls their willpower against a Sorcerer's focus power test. Every DoF (And you will have a lot) nets you 1d10 points of no toughness, no armor damage. Technically, you can do this for every wounding hit in an attack.

So yeah, nerfing something because it scored 60 points of damage isn't really... reasonable. Not only is your nerf so excessive it makes a power that requires the Mark of Tzeentch less powerful than a cheaper universal power that doesn't, it's also based on the fact that it dealt an amount of damage that is hardly excessive or unusual, especially for the tier it's meant for!

Basically, in my opinion: change it back.

lately my friends have nagged me and calling my sorcerer OP

Although i dont understand why they think this because if it can get hurt, its not OP and my character has lost a leg and both of my ears twice now

so please i wish to convice them i am not OP and they are begging to GM that i need to be nerfed. So please give me evidence that prove sorcerers are not OP

How are you playing your sorcerer? Some are quite indeed OP.

I'd say that melee sorcs are the worst offenders. Warp time, a high psy rating, swift/lightning attack, and a force weapon (which you start with). Want to crank that OP to the next level? Buy warp lock, favored by the warp, and then push warp time when you cast and sustain it as long as possible; use warp lock if you roll perils. You can even get better; feel free to toss in raptor and charge with swift attack, using warp time to move really far and fast every round to get where you need to go rolling 3d10+mods damage for at least the first hit or more, depending on how your DM reads raptor.

Jerrith said:

Re: warp lock and sustaining - he can't sustain 'other' psychic powers until the start of his next turn, and he doesn't need to start sustaining until his next turn anyway. You don't sustain in the turn you cast.

People complain about psykers all the time. What many people don't seem to understand is that unless you go nurgle, you are exactly like the old 1st ed. D&D wizard. A glass cannon. My group jokingly refers to my psyker as the 155, because he is their artillery. However unless he can be protected from incoming fire he dies, fast.

Jerrith description is very close but I don't have warp time yet, instaed I got telekinetic armor and jump pack. I was planing on buying war time

There is a fair bit of Risk Vs. Reward in both the Sorcerer and the Psyker, the other archetypes are comparatively "safe" when you take into account the requirement for a high corruption for certain powers, and the simple fact you have the potential to destroy yourself on a bad couple of rolls.

On the point of the Corruption, beside the Infamy Abilities other characters have a greater potential to 'manage' their CP, where there seems to be a much greater possibility and even a desire to get Corruption Points.

The Psychic Phenomena, at unfettered you pretty much have a 10% chance to trigger and if you Push always. Talking about Warp Lock is all well and good, but its a once a session ability and has some negative effects. However without Warplock you have a chance to blow yourself up, destroy everything you are carrying and also screw with the rest of the party.

Last point would be that there more than a couple of ways to hamper their tests which you just don't have with other abilities - Null Rods, Psychic Hoods etc in addition to the regular dodge and so on.

So yes, there in some aspects a Psychic Powers archetypes have some more power, however the Risk factor (compared to the others) is also greater.

On the point of Bolt of Change, PR 5 = 5d10 with Pen9 assuming 5's on the d10s = 25 with Pen 9 at range 50m

A Legion Heavy Bolter on full auto and assuming 3 degrees of success to get 1d10+12 and again assuming 5s on the dice - 17, 17, 17 each with Pen 5 at a range of 150m. With tearing you probably would get higher than 5s but anyway

Hellhammer Lascannon, 5d10+10 with a Pen 10, and with 5s on the d10s. 35 with a Pen 10.. it also has Proven (3) so at minimum 18 straight damage to a Space Marine which is sought to one shot, probably half of starting marine character and nearly every starting human

So take that against NPC starting Chosen marine in Power Armour and Agility 35 with dodge only trained.

BoC - 35% the Negate with Dodge after the Pen and the Felling 22 points of Damage suffered

HeavyBolter - 35% to dodge one, 25% to dodge 2 and 15% to dodge them all. NPC would soak a lot of the damage and suffer 6+6+6=18 damage

the Hellhammer again the 35% chance to dodge, however note you have to aware of the shot and with a range of 300m there is a better chance to negate that awareness, anyway... NPC would be able to soak 8 of the 35 and suffering the 27 damage.

Personally, I'm more scared of a Khornate Apostate who has a Fleshfused Hellhammer

yourface said:

In fairness they should lift up their skirt hems. This is chaos, this is freedom, what you will is fate!!!!

if your character is so OP they could use you like a canary. 8-)

If it gets annoying you should point out there are many things in the 40k universe that likes to eat/nest inside psyker brains. Enslavers; mind worms; etc. & weapons & equipment designed specifically to do nasty things to psykers whilst leaving others only mildly perturbed, the Ordo Hereticus basically uses such objects to hold their doors open on hot days. 8-)

Remember, a psyker shines in the warp like a beacon normally & flares brighter when using powers, even without "perils of the Warp".

There can also be back ground 'radiation' of areas of significance, like battle sites where an imperial saint was killed or a heretic achieved apotheosis. There are also temples & shrines dedicated to a greater power; the Emperor; the Machine-god; a specific chaos god or none at all, the list can go on.

A psyker is walking across an open flat, in full sight of anything & everything, with only the will protecting them.

Also, a psyker can not psyk if someone shoots 'em in the head. "Geek the mage!" is still a viable battle-cry in 40K as it was in D&D, the enemy would know it as a matter of course.

+++end of rant+++

8-)

@theshadowduke

People complain about psykers all the time. What many people don't seem to understand is that unless you go nurgle, you are exactly like the old 1st ed. D&D wizard. A glass cannon. My group jokingly refers to my psyker as the 155, because he is their artillery. However unless he can be protected from incoming fire he dies, fast.

Maybe we're playing different games, but in my BC rules, there's nothing preventing a Space Marine (yup, those guys with +4 Unnatural Toughness right from the start) from dressing in the Power Armour (the one he gets from the start) just like the other marines and putting up a few defensive powers. Hardly a "glass cannon".

Oh Cifer, if you are playing in a game where there are marines, the sorc is still the glass cannon among marines. The requirement for a psyker to improve their psycics limits them in other areas. Thus, a forsaken or a champion make a better tank. On top of that, all it takes is a crappy focus power test and the psyker is down for an encounter or more.

In my game its mostly humans, however I still retain a great deal of durability because of power armor and tk shield. The two psykers in my group are canaries. If something is going to hurt us, then it needs to die NOW. However generally the issue with psykers is that their powers allow them to branch into other areas.

As much as I loathe meta-gaming, both I and the other psyker in my group did so, to keep our power levels lower to allow for others to play as well. While a CSM sorcerer is not a glass cannon in a group of humans, he is in a group of marines. IMHO if the GM of your group allowed a Sorcerer into a group of human heretics, then your GM was extremely foolish. There is a certain amount of control a GM must exercise if they wish to maintain both party and campaign balance, and that is a discussion that needs to be had with the person running the game.

theshadowduke said:

So no, the notion that a lone Sorcerer in a group of humans is unworkable is not really something I can agree with.

You play a Psyker in 40K, yes you are OP.

FF and even GW hasnt tried to hide it or anything, Psykers are just better than regular folk. Now that might cause problems if people all want to at the same power level but its really up to the GM to make sure things flow nicely here, add some more enemies that are resistant to psychic powers and ignore the buffs they give.

Crate said:

In a combat scenario that has no repercussions, your probably right. But put in any witnesses, they know you're a psyker if you use any of the popular powers. Whether you shoot the slightest bolt or get a small nose bleed from a bolter using TK shield. Extra attention in itself can bring a balancing act, which is like sprinkled double icing if youre also an overt Astartes.

GunslyHoneycutt said:

Exactly this! Balance isn't just about combat, nor is the game just a combat hack'n'slash. Characters have a wide range of non-combat options open to them. It's entirely possible to gen up a psyker or sorceror with no direct combat damage dealing ability, instead focusing on telepathy, precognition etc. You could be the groups early warning system that way.

Complaining about a psyker being OP in combat is like complaining about Hereteks being OP at dealing with technical issues, or a Champion being OP at commanding people.

Alot of the OPness of a Sorceror/Psyker can be worked around by a decent GM. As long as the player running the Sorceror/Psyker isn't trying to be a cheese ball power gamer, there are plenty of threats you can throw their way in combat to challenge them and the party on equal footing. In a situation where the player IS being a cheese ball power gamer... well... your kinda stuck. lol. They're still plenty of solutions to the problem, in game and out, that a GM can implement to balance things out. Alot of said solutions have already been touched on by a few peeps on here.

You can power game any of the main archetypes pretty easily IMHO. Ease of access to top tier abilities early in character development, god specific point reductions from being favored, good starting equipment on the majority of the archetypes, etc, etc, etc... These things are there to be used AND abused in equal measure not only by the players, but by GMs as well.