Hi all.

I plan to kill a certain arch-heretic my group is chasing by a rival Inquisitor's acolyte (a Black Priest of Maccabeus actually). This will happen on an orbital space station just moments before the PC' reach him. And while the rival acolyte has an Inquisitorial rosette with him, I do not want him to use it when the Navy security personnel (or Magistartum for that matter) rushes to the incident. Do you think it viable, that he identifies himself as an Ministorum operative and is therefore untouchable/unjusticiable by the Navy security or the Magistratum (as an Inquisition, Arbites or Commissarial operative certainly would be)?

Thanks for any feedback.

Well, you could have the priest pull the "the is Ministorum juristiction" card and the navy troops and enforcers would probably go along with it. However, as I understand it, Inquisitorial backing is as solid as it gets, as in, it would trump the Ministorum card, the Ordero Hereticus was established pretty much to do exactly that. So yes, he could say "this is ministorum business and not have the navy or enforcers interfere, but it no stronger (and probably weaker) than pulling the inquisition card.

Agmar_Strick said:

Thanks. I think it is clear that 'pulling the Inquisition card' is stronger, but the rival acolyte (with a rosette) do not want to cause a great stir by using Inquisition authority while the player's acolytes (who do not have their own rosette (yet)) probably (...) do not dare to cause a bigger stir either (they are ordered to keep a low profile after all). The only thing that could happen is that the groups Arbitrator might pull out the 'Arbitrator card', but that is another story...

This "I-am-not-your-juristriction"-thing is indeed a nice one.

But in that case, I would rule/assume that the local enforcers/security would still have the right to "hold" the ministorum agent in question to wait for a word of the ecclesiarchy/ministorum. Take note: they would not be allowed to do him harm (unless he refuses to follow) and would not be allowed to interrogate or even question him. Just to hold him until the response of the ministorum arrives. Which could be "leave him alone!" or "hold him until one of our guys fetches him."

After all, we are talking about the killing of a high ranking member of imperial society...or aren´t we?

How is Ministorum above the law?

Thanks, that is really helpful. Still, the local Ministorum cannot do much and do not know him, as his credentials are not from the local planet or system. Maybe his credentials could include some secret Inquisition cipher the local Ministorum would recognize.

Gregorius21778 said:

No, actually the heretic just has a (high quality) fake ID and is not known to the local Magistratum. The Adeptus Arbites most probably know of him (there is kind of a warrant), but I am not sure whether the local Arbites would recognize him (at least surely not on sight). The Ordo Hereticus and Malleus are on his heels though...

Letrii said:

Maybe not above Imperial law. (ie. Adeptus Arbites jurisdication), but most probably above certain local laws.

Luthor Harkon said:

Actually, from what I understand, they are kind of above Adaptus Arbites jurisdiction.

The Adaptus Arbites have jurisdiction of any and all Imperial Citizens as well as the Adeptus Terra. However, since the Ministorum is not a part of the Adaptus Terra and it's members are above that of the Imperial Citizen, they exist in an odd kind of gray area. Strictly speaking, it is the Adaptus Soroitas who have the jurisdiction to police the ranks of the Ministorum, not the Adaputs Arbites. However, this doesn't fully stop the Arbiters from arresting heretical members of the Ministorum. They will still enforce the Imperial law where ever they find it being broken but, in order to play nicy-nice with the Ministorum and the Adaptus Sororitas, they will give members of the Ministorum an actual for real trial. This is one of only three classes of people who get a trial when the Arbiters are involved. The other two are Planetary Governors (sometimes, depending on who his friends are) and Inquisitors (yes, I guess there has to be some high ranking Judge who is so in love with Imperial Law that they will go after an Inquisitor who breaks it).

Actually I think the Ministorum vs. Arbites is a shady one most likely fraught with rivalry, politics, and lost of serious problems. The judges probably end up setting precendent to make it case-by-case, which further muddies the situation and results in everyone stepping on everyone else's toes.

I would say however that if he's not actually going to be backed by the ministorum, he'd be held for a while until the Inquisition pulled the strings to make that backing materialize.

They are not above the law, especially since the whole Age of Apostasy thing happened.

That said, Exorcism and dealing with Heretics to the Imperial Creed IS Ecclesiarcy centered, so a priest killing an arch-heretic he could safely say that he did it as an agent of the Ecclesiarcy, especially if he has any evidence supporting his actions. At that point, while the alcolytes may not like it, short of them pulling their own rosettes (if they have them) I think the Ministorium agent walks since he did do his job as far as the law and the creed are concerned.

He may not just walk away while his flamer is still smoking, but he'll walk as far as the Law and the Arbitrators are concerned.

Xathess Wolfe said:

I also think that the Ministorum is not beyond Imperial law since the Age of Apostasy, but I wonder what about local (Magistartum enforced) law. As I said the mentioned 'heretic' is not widely known as a heretic and it is not provable by the Black Priest either (even though I think about leting the heretic use the psychic power Space Slip a few times during the chase...). In my campign the Black Priest, Kaltos (who looks a little like a mixture between Michael Ironside in Starship Troopers and the drawing in the IH), is the only acolyte of Inquisitor Ahmazzi of the Ordo Malleus. Maybe Kaltos would show his rosette to the Magistratum/Navy superiors and would then be released, but I would rather like it when my players see that the Enforcers / security personnel back off on the spot when they see his (non-Inquisitorial) credentials.

Actually it is not his flamer that is smoking but his Puritan-14 and Stormchild.

They chase should be a little like

Xathess Wolfe said:

just to place the story into a picture:(and repeat what you've said already)

through darkened hallways and claustrophobic allies of the underhive our heroes chase the unnamed heretic, "we can't lose him again!" they all think in unison as they do not know his identity, frantically he seems to fade from sight as they see him impossibly further away than before, the acolytes psyker monotones the familiar phrase "rogue psyker nearby m'lord." as they think they've lost him they hurredly follow the sounds of screaming, and gunfire. the entrance to a warehouse opens to a massive expanse seeming much larger than it is due to the confined spaces they just left, a stranger covered in battle dress of the ministorum holding a smoking weapon in each hand stands over the partially charred corpse of the heretic they were chasing, almost as if on cue. mere milliseconds before the acolytes were to vocoalize their doubts jaws hanging open from a second level balcony descend the paladins of justice, the judges of truth...as soon as their presence is detected the stranger lays his weapons on the ground and waits for their entrance to finish. at first glance it appears all the arbitrators securing the area are regular troopers. and when they ask the cliche question "what is going on here" the stranger answers pointing to his breast pocket "my ministorum business has just been concluded." checking his credentials (in his pocket) they apologize for treating him so harshly for which he replies "just doing your duty son. these witnesses were just responding to the ruckuss I caused they had no part in it."

aside from grammatical errors and punctuation, that pretty much got it?

your priest upon entering the area contacted the local arbitrators and advised them that he is on an official mission of which he cannot disclose, and this is why the arbitrators don't ask any questions onsite, as only the local law has been informed. the arbitrator of the group is no longer under local arbitrator employment (being whisked away to the inquisitor he works for) and was not made privvy to the details. (if he even bothered to ask around.)

I think that's a valid scenario Xathess, though by no means the only possible way for it to play out. It all comes down to how the various individuals handle it, and I think the ministorum agent would be held until the ministorum sent the bare minimum information to the Arbites to confirm that the guys activities were proper and sanctioned (and within their jurisdiction). I think he would be held comfortably, maybe even have coffee with the head of the local office while they waited on the paperwork (though he'd be unarmed, as a matter of procedure). Something to that effect.

Chance Silas said:

Thanks a lot for that. That is almost exactly how I had it in mind. The only difference is that it takes place on the crowded orbital space station instead of the underhive and that not Arbitrators come to the scene but Naval security personnel.

Kaltos, the Black Priest, is too arrogant (not in an emotional 'aloof' sense) or better too ignorant to have informed the local Arbites/Enforcer beforehand. He simply do not care about jusisdication.

You are right (in my opinion) that the groups Arbitrator is not under 'local Arbitrator employment' and therefore neither privy to any local knowledge nor able to assert his auhority.

Thinking outside the proverbial box of what's legit, you're probably better off spending your time formulating a way of finding the person and planning on how you're supposed to get off the station before anyone is much the wiser rather than working with the law.

Reason for this is that regardless of who or why someone has to die, while Arbites may have a lot of clout when it comes to matter of Imperial Law and Creed, a captain is the law on his ship (or in this case station) and the Imperial Navy, its security forces and other assorted persons on the station follow the captain, his officers and if you go around countermanding him, its mutiny and you'll get flushed out the lock like a human sized turd. I dont think they're going to really believe that anyone is part of the inquisition when they're about to be spaced because people will say anything to save their arse.

Spend some time and money if you have too, if a melta bomb or demo charge goes off under the heretics bed so you have that 'distanced alibi' or you pay a bit more for a silenced heavy pistol loaded with dum-dums to make it a sure bet. But plan on the worst happening and work your way back rather than the easiest route where people are going to let you run around blasting off magazines of ammunition after a 'heretic' on their turf, because you can **** well guarentee they probably dont much want that if they can help it and tend to ask for annoying things like proof which just gets in the way of an easy murder.

You're the executioners, not the judge.

Luthor Harkon said:

I guess I'm confused here a bit, so excuse me, but he's an agent of the Inquisition, a rather valuable one at that concider the training he's been given by the Ordo Mallus, been extensively trained, and yet he's willing to simply be arrested and tossed in jail because of his arrogance.

I don't buy he, he's arrogent, stuck up, but probably not completely stupid and would have an out, some kind of escape that would cover multiple contingencies. If he doesn't want to play the inquisition card (and if I was arrogant I'd play that one to be honest), doesn't want to inform the local authorities (which doesn't make sense since as an inquisition agent he's definatly aware of jurisdiction, mainly that he has none only if he plays the inquisition card), and he has no proof that the targt really is a heretic (or doesn't have enough to share) you could just make him a simple thug.

So to me at least the character is unbelievable.

@MKX The space station is run by the Administartum and the Naval security personnel onboard takes care of most enforcer functions as there is no Magistratum on board. Kaltos is 'running around blasting off magazines of ammunition after a 'heretic'' before all due to style-reasons...

@ Xathess Is he really that unbelievable? ****. Sometimes my NPCs are it seems...

Kaltos is a mind cleansed Black Priest of Maccabeus, so he is indeed rather valuable and indeed extensively trained. But he is trained mainly to counter daemonic taints and vile sorcerers. He is not the sociable type and rather taciturn in his approach. He is more ignorant than arrogant (if at all), he just appears arrogant on first sight.
Maybe he should indeed just pull out the Inquisition card, but I was wondering (and that was my question in the first place) whether pulling out the Ministorum card would be enough too keep him from detention by local security/enforcers.

Maybe I just misunderstood you, since I'm not in game, and its very hard to convey certain things via online.

As many of us said, the MInistorium card would definatly work, if he had proof of heresy ANY kind of proof no matter how slim, or he informed the local law. He could be the biggest religious zealot, burning entire towns for heresy as long as he had proof, and kind of proof. This is doubly true for the Imperial Navy, where their version of Commisars would be almost be thankful that a priest took down a heretic on their watch, but he needs proof.

And the inquisition and the church (confessors/witch hunters) would teach him that, first thing. Burn everyone you want, but they MUST be heretics, which requires some proof, no matter how slim. Well the inquisition doesn't care so much about proof, but since the Age of Apostacy the Church would, and would ensure that no unwanted attention would be directed to them from a certain Ordo designed to prevent unwarrented Ministorium executions.

Also, I'm assuming that your Mind Cleansed Black Priest is GM caveat? I don't have the books, but aren't Mind Cleased specifically forbidden from becoming Black Priests?

Thanks again Mr. Wolfe for the helpful input. Your interpretation of the respective authorities seem to fit with my vision. Anyway, it seems I have to go back to the drawing board. And besides, you are absolutely right that Mind Cleansed Black Priests are not allowed. I will change it to Schola Progenium or Imperial World (MQ)...