We have been debating this old thread: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=386772&efpag=0#518448.

Ktom,

Does the ruling that you gave indicate that each additional discard can claim its own power, or only that each additional discard is eligible to claim that 1 power if the previous one didn't?

Specific situation to make sure we understand your answer: If Motley and Thug discard 2 cards, and both are chars, how many power is put on thug? 1 or 2?

The thing to remember is that the Crewman turns 1 into 2. Each card is considered to be discarded individually, creating a separate potential Response trigger. (ie: You end up with 2 separate "after a card is discarded from the top of a player's deck" opportunities, just like Valar creates one "after a character is killed" opportunity for each character in play.) So the "if" statement will be checked separately for each of the 2 cards, giving you a potential of picking up 2 power for the Thug/Urchin if the two cards are both characters/attachments.

The main argument to the contrary is going to be "but the effect says '...if that card is...,' so you only look at one card!" The thing to remember, though, is that the wording of the effect as printed only contemplates discarding a single card. It really doesn't make sense to say, in its natural form, "...if any card discarded in this way is...". When the Crewman's effect changes the number of cards discarded from 1 to 2, the printed wording of the "if" statement no longer matches the practical reality of the resolution - just like the "...discard the top card of the losing opponent's deck..." printed wording doesn't match the practical reality of the resolution, either.

Combining the fact that the singular wording doesn't match the now multiple effect with the well settled rule that each card discarded creates an individual trigger for Responses or passives, applying the "if" statement separately to each card is the correct interpretation.

ktom said:

Can you please do me a favor and elaborate how for each discarded card the "add 1 power" condition sentence is re-read for each discarded card?

Can you please re-write the text of this effect for when there are 1 - 3 Motley Crewman in play?

Is it not "Response: After you win a challenge in which Harbor Thug participated, discard the top X cards of the losing opponent's deck. For each card that is a character, Harbor Thug claims 1 power."?

Or is it

"Response: After you win a challenge in which Harbor Thug participated, do this 1+X times, where X is the number of Motley Crewman in play: Discard the top card of the losing opponent's deck. If that card is a character, Harbor Thug claims 1 power."

With what you are saying, the effect is done 1+X times where X is the number of Motley Crewman in play.

I am reading this as each card is discarded creating a separate response(like the rules state), but am not seeing how it does this for its own conditional effect at all since it's not a real response. Even though the text says "that card", I do not follow how it creates it's own mini-response that is "triggered" each time a card is discarded with its own ability. Or that modifies the number of power collected on that original response trigger.

If anything, the replacement of the number of discards creates "if those cards are characters, add 1 power to your house." which of course would make MC pretty useless with HT.

Now, if what you are stating is what Nate or Damon clarified with you back from that original thread because that is the intent of the whole Motley Crewman ability, then there is no debate.

The chance that you discard a character is very high(and with the new Corpse lake, you will get a power also!) so it's an important consideration! Many thanks!

Bomb said:

Having established from the normal course of the game that cards are discarded individually, just as they are drawn individually, the remaining question is whether the "if" part of the Thug or Urchin looks at the card or, in a manner similar to Corpse Lake, looks at the effect. If the answer is "card," you have a chance of netting one power for each card discarded. If the answer is "effect," you will not get more than one power.

Looking at the first part of the effect ("...discard the top card..."), you do not replace individual words in that statement to make it take on a plural meaning. More to the point, you are not replacing or substituting words and checking what the new meaning will be and following it. Rather, you are resolving the meaning of the effect as it normally stands for multiple cards rather than for the single card indicated by the text, not trying to force some literalist interpretation that doesn't make sense.

Said another way, if you try to come up with a plural of "the" and plug it into the effect, pretending that's what the card says now, it isn't going to make any sense. So why are we coming up with the plural of "that" and plugging it in, pretending that's what the card says now? Particularly since that will lead to ambiguity in the resolution of the effect. (ie, Your interpretation of "if those cards are characters..." is "if all of those cards are character..."; why is that any more valid here than "if any of those cards are characters..."?)

If you're going to maintain the meaning of the "if" statement, like you maintain the meaning of the "discard" statement, rather than change the tense of one word and see what happens, it becomes relevant that FFG chose to word the "if" statement as "if that card is a character..." rather than something more like Corpse Lake - for example "if a character is discarded in this way...". The fact that the "if" statement looks at the individual card - rather than at the result of the effect - to determine if the condition is met for giving the power means that to preserve the meaning and resolution of this effect, you will look at the cards individually - not at the result of the effect - when the Crewman allows more than one card to be discarded.

So ultimately, it comes down to the wording of the Thug/Urchin as is. They specify they are looking at the "card" to determine its type - as differentiated from effects like Corpse Lake that look at the result of the discarding effect to see what card types hit the discard pile. Because the Thug/Urchin normally looks at the individual card to determine its type, it will look at the individual cards to determine their types (and award power separately) in conservation of the method of resolution when multiple cards end up being discarded for their effects.

/takingaminutetochannelmyinnercharleysheen

WINNING!!!!!!

As always, thanks ktom!

As for Dennis, he just received a new set of butt plugs, so of course he's winning!