The party that I play as Overlord for has started making Hero's using the formulas given here in the support for Descent, and they have hit a snag in the book. First let me show two exsamples of what one player made, and one that I would aprove of as an overlord. Then I will eplain a little further. I do this all at the request of my players as well... so hopefully I get something resolved!

Party Player made:

(race: unknown/human/possibly machine)

Health:12 Fatique:2 Armor:0 Speed:3

3 conquest,

Trait Dice; Melee:3 Range:0(+3) Magic:0

Skill Cards; Fighting:3 Subterfuge:0 Wizardry:0

Hero Ability:Add 3 power dice to range trait.

*Note: Insert weapon here and here, aim away from party.

Overlord made:

(race: 330%Dwarf)

Health:12 Fatique:5 Armor:2 Speed:2

4 conquest,

Trait Dice: Melee:2 Range:0(+2) Magic:1

Skill Cards; Fighting:1 Subterfuge:1 Wizardry:1

Hero Ability: Adds two power dice to range trait.

*Note: The Fat Captian of the Watch Tower.

Now I would only like to ask... should I let my players make 'kill bots' by mis-interpeting the rules (possibly with intent), or should they listen to the wise Overlord when it comes to making a new Hero?

Im also wondering who would win in a fight? No just kidding...

Hmmm... it's interesting to see some ideas here, but there's some major flaws in the player's design to exploit madly (and cackle).

The Player's character (Human/Machine thingy) has lower health, no armor and crap for fatigue. Sure, he has fighting and range, but odds are that he will either be a short to medium range fighter, as he will make every attempt possible to grab a shield. If he doesn't, than your life is simple... group maul. You should be easily able to kill this character once per turn with just about any type of monster, totally negating the whole (Kill bot) issue.

Your character is a little better, with a good pool of fatigue to cover the short coming of movement. It makes life easier, especially considering the really good melee cards need you to use 2. The spread of skills kinda hurts, but it's what you had to do. Overall, I'd bet your character would have a small advantage, as long as you manage to corner the Player.

Just remember... you should take the good old DM stand, and have the final say in the game about characters. If it helps any, only allow custom characters if the player can make up a good backstory that fits in the theme.

Love to see this playtested with random equipment, though... that player will be crying when you spawn something as simple as a Beastmen pack behind his butt.

OK, three major points:

1. The hero creation rules are ambiguous.

They specify that traits that start red cannot be lowered further, but specify no minimums for any other traits, so technically there's nothing in the document that would prevent you from lowering your traits below the red values if you pick a race that doesn't start at the red values--and even if you close that obvious hole, there's no minimum given for speed or fatigue, so there's no reason you couldn't lower them to zero--and the only reason you couldn't reduce them below zero is that the rules don't allow us to determine what that would even mean.

Now, with a strict reading of the rules, this doesn't actually matter, because there's no incentive to lower anything more than once--you're given BP based on the difference between the number of traits raised and lowered, and it doesn't mention the amount. However, it also uses as the official example a hero that raises 2 traits and lowers 4--which is impossible, since a trait can't be both raised and lowered--so either the official example is blatantly illegal, or "number of traits lowered" is actually supposed to mean "number of times any trait was lowered," and you can get more BP for lowering a trait more than once.

If you're going to allow that, it would be reasonable to pick minimum values for speed and fatigue--however, based on the starting numbers of various races that are not red, those minimums clearly shouldn't be any higher than 2 for speed and 3 for fatigue--and I believe there's an official hero with 2 fatigue, so a strong case could be made for allowing that. And the build you posted should actually have BP to spare even if it raises its fatigue to 3, provided it starts with the nimble race. In fact, move one trait die or one skill to another type and it has enough BP to keep fatigue at 4, making it definitely totally legal even if you don't allow traits to be lowered more than once.

2. The hero creation rules are not balanced.

Sorry, it's a nice concept and all, it those rules provide some nice insight into the design process, but those rules are not balanced and are never going to be. The abilities are all over the map in terms of usefulness, the difference between a first-level ability and a third-level ability various tremendously, it is never worth choosing any race with less bonus BP unless your desired stat array is flat-out illegal for all races with more (due to the one-raise-per-stat limit), and there's just not enough granularity or subtlety in the rules. It's entirely possible to create a hero that can attack seven times in one round, but it's not possible to re-create most official heroes, so these rules are clearly not doing a good job of charging BP commensurate to the value of what you're getting.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you can't use them, as there's certainly a lot of variation in overall hero power even among the official heroes, and if you avoid the most obviously abusive designs this is unlikely to be the biggest balance concern in your game. But don't think that all heroes created with these rules, or even "reasonable" heroes created with these rules, are automatically going to be fair and balanced--whether you exploit ambiguities or "misinterpretations" of the rules or not. It doesn't really matter what the details of the official rules actually are, because following them to the letter above common sense is definitely not a good idea.

3. That "kill-bot" that you're worried about sucks. A lot.

And not just in comparison to the over-the-top abusive builds possible under the custom rules, but compared to completely ordinary official heroes, that one is thoroughly unimpressive. Yeah, OK, you're good with two weapon types. Your party has ever-so-slightly reduced odds of getting a pathologically bad treasure draw. You're also very easy to kill for your conquest value and your speed and fatigue are both abysmal. You're going to slow your party down, get outmaneuvered by all the monsters, and killed on a regular basis, and the only virtue even slightly mitigating this is that if your party draws two good ranged weapons and no good melee weapons that you can use the second ranged weapon instead of an axe. Under no circumstances would I voluntarily play a hero anything like this if I were seriously attempting to win.

It's not even at a local maximum for effectiveness. Swap out the Master ability for Adept and move one die from melee to ranged and the hero is almost strictly improved ( and has more BP for something else). I've already pointed out that you've got a good chunk of completely wasted BP, probably due to poor race selection. This hero isn't even close to being optimized.

So yes, I would strongly advise that the player use the hero you created, or almost any other hero at all, but that's because he's likely to die horribly if he uses the first one you posted, not because he's going to break the game over his knee.

Actually, I'm trying to figure out what basic rules the OP has got utterly worng such that he and/or his players thought that there was any significant usefulness in having dual traits. Sure, its a nice little backup capability, but not significantly useful in ways that you would try hard to make characters that have this.

Perhaps the OP and his players think that a hero with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other can attack with both in a single attack?

Sorry, no can do. When making an attack you must choose one equipped weapon to make that attack with. See DJitD page 9 under Step 1 Declare Attack. The rules for dual wielding are on page 19 and require 2x (one handed) Melee weapons, one of which merely supports the other by adding an Off Hand Bonus to the first attack, rather than rolling its own extra dice.

Can't think of any other reason anyone might think the party-designed character had any usefulness whatsoever...

Thank you for pointing out the fact that it is going to be fun for me as an OL to kill that Party Player made Hero over and over untill the proverbial cows came home(hence me calling it a killbot lol).

I tried to also tell the party that I would only really be willing to test the Heros they build with the unofficial rule base 'in that way' on un tested floors anyway... but they wanted me to ask this question here just to know the hard facts.

Thanks fellow users for the input on this matter, as this will fully resovle the issue. I just hope none of my players will need a tissue.

Regarding the dual skiller option; It could be nice when anything you find in a chest becomes usable. Bronze Armor with a Gold Bow in hand and a Silver Axe/Staff in the pack anyone(not to mention our 'other' slots)? I guess I could deal with being a portly veteran dwarf that only moves 2 squares, just got to get lucky on the skill card pull lol.

Well my player refused to listen to reason, and insisted you users didn't know what you or I was talking about. Insisting on a playtest, I let another player sit in as OL so that possibly I get to game as a player (someday lol). Even though it was his first time sitting in as the OL I thought he had done rather well, and actually used the perfect exsample of spawning a beast party behind the party made player, killing the 'killbot' with just the three attacks... Even having two legitimate house favorite Characters (Steelhorns and Silhouette) by the side of party player made hero wasn't enough to help the poor thing... We even let the party choose any starting skills they wanted for all Heros, a very big crutch in my book lol.

I asked after the game if they had anything to say for the very bad failure (He is a decent Descent player, just not a hero Maker lol), he denied that it was the unoficial heros fault and wanted a rematch with one change to his skill, the change he wanted made me want to crack up with evil laughter... This is what he wants...

One wizardy skill;

MATA AND KATA.....

*rolls eyes to the heavens*

Some players never learn I guess!

Thanks again all for the honest return posts, but I can see the truth obviously didn't matter to him, even though he wanted ME to ask YOU all... lol

(P.s. And No I did not think that the party could do whatever it was Corbon posted about "Perhaps the OP and his players think that a hero with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other can attack with both in a single attack?" , I'm by no means a dense OverLord)

Zearthling said:

Sorry if you felt maligned. It was a pretty long stretch but isolated groups in any game can get some pretty wierd rules just because of an early misread that no one ever thinks to question. I just couldn't think of any other reason someone would think it worthwhile to have such cripplingly low stats for such a weak capability.

Your player's response gives reason (or lack of it)...

*sigh* Did you at least point out that he's got substantial amounts of unspent BP and could make that hero strictly better for no cost at all?

If you really want to rub his nose in it, ask if you can try out a different custom hero under the same conditions (same quest, same back-up heroes, same rules for skill selection, etc.). Then you pull out a hero that looks something like this:

Nimble
12 wounds, 6 fatigue, 0 armor, 3 speed
3 conquest
2 ranged dice, 1 melee die
1 combat skill, 1 subterfuge skill, 1 wizardry skill
Ability: Guardian (9+): After making an interrupt attack, pay 1 fatigue to keep your guard order

Skills: Unmovable (+1 armor and free guard order when battling), Vampiric Blood (recover 1 fatigue per kill), and the subterfuge skill granting +2 max fatigue (I forget the name). Also, make sure someone else in the party has Leadership so that you can easily recover this hero's fatigue every round (rest order just before his turn).

In some quests, you could probably have the other heroes sit in town feeding this character rest orders & vitality potions and still win easily. I mean, that's an easy 11 attacks in one round (more if you actually kill anything) just from this one hero, while maintaining enough wounds and armor to be rather tough to kill for 3 conquest (3 armor with chainmail + unmovable).

Oh It's not really a big deal considering that this particular party hasn't even made it into the next rule set I have ready for them (The Altar of Despair)... It will probably make them cry when I start destroying the Items in players hands with Dark Relics (my favorite thing to do).

Currently they are stuck in the "Spolied Brat" quest. They keep letting the lightly armored ranger Hero carry the princess, and I keep killing it, and on most ocasions, stealing the wench. And now they want to argue with me about line of sight around obvious corners. I keep telling them, "Look, If you can trace a Strait line from the face of your figure's body to the face of the targets figure's body with out touching walls or obstacles... then you have line of sight."

Period right? Yea you would think so!

I'm wondering now if maybe I need to ban this party from the tables for a month, just because they argue with me (the OverLord) way to much. The most common arguments being; movement point use, the equiping of items at the start of a turn, and making it known to the OL(me) just what actions they declare for the players turn. Those three things each take up an hour of my time anytime this party plays!

P.s. Is it common for partys to squable over il-logical(and more frequently, unrational) points of veiw? Oh wait, sorry thats a 'give in' for most D&D type games... I'm just glad we dont need any D100's in Descent!

Zearthling said:

Err, what?

'Figures' have no bearing on LOS. LOS is space-to-space - from centre of space to centre of space to be precise. See DJitD pg... crap, wifes pc so no pdf and can't find my base rules. Sorry. Anyway, go have a look.

LOS is very clear including a number of pictorial examples in the rules. Descent is a boardgame, not an RPG. The LOS rules are very simple, but not always intuitive. They are LOS rules for a boardgame, not for 'real life'.

Also, you might note, the OL doesn't have any 'higher' authority than any other player.

I'm going to use the figure for the Hero "Kirga" for this next part then....

Whats in the center of a space? A figure(on 99% of ocasions). Whats at the center of Kirga's figure? His face. Whats in the center of the figure for a Giant? It's face.(not all figures follow this exsample, but +90% of them do so I use it)

Now I would like you to consider that the party members did not spend well over $100 getting this game + exspansions to my table, I did. The table was also provided by yours truly, and last but not least, I provide a place that is out of the rain and wind for all the above to be played as well (I'll also mention all the cash money spent nightly on drinks and snacks that more often then not comes from my pockets as well). I'm not sure about you, but I'll kick players out of my basement just like kicking new born puppies across a football feild for number one simple reason that if all you really want to do is try to cheat, argue about things and start fights, then go shopping for SJG's Munchkin over at Border's Books and leave me and my basement out of it.

OverLord IS a hard 'job' to 'play', even if you cant see my point of veiw on that... lol

So if anything lets just agree to disagre on this LOS arguement. At your tables you do it your way and at mine I do it my way... Its better that way if we do, I'm sure we can both agree on that right!

P.s. Yes dude I relize that Descent is not a 'traditional' RPG(basic 1970's D&D), but its far from the traditional Board Game as well(Monopoly vs. Risk)... It's also nothing like Traditional TT war games either(H.G. Wells 'Little Wars' vs. Warhammer 40K), to me its a mix of all three types of games, and it probably can't get any better then that for Geeks right?

Zearthling said:

But, you don't target the center of a giant, you target one of the four spaces it sits on. It basically is grid mathematics, slope/intercept, etc. to determine LOS.

Zearthling said:

So what do you do for the other 1 to 10% then? Never attack them?

Actually in the center of a Giant figure is a small dot since its where the corners of 4 spaces meet. And the center of a Hellhound would be its stomach. How about Kobolds, which face are you talking about since there are two monsters on the figure?

Couple this with the ruling that all figures have 360 degree LOS around them so there really is no "face" and the method of using the face of a figure falls apart rapidly. Its why LOS works the way it does in Descent.

Saying you do it your way and I do it my way works fine for things that are not clear cut, but LOS is VERY clearly defined in the rules.

I take this as saying heros would have LOS around wall corners then? What's the use of a fine skill like crack shot then?

What hapens when the corner is further blocked by rubble thats next to it's side(as in the very first quest in area 3)? Can a hero magicly see through the cracks in the dirt with out precision skill?

I'm not picking a fight, I'm just asking....

Can God make a stone so heavey even he can't lift it?

Zearthling said:

Actually, God can.

The answers to both of those happens to be yes if I'm understanding what you are asking. If you are on the corner of a wall, and a monster is in a space around the corner of the wall, then you have LOS.

For example:

In this image, the Hero (H) has LOS to the monster (M) and can attack it. If either the Hero or Monster were west (for the Hero) or south (for the Monster) then they would not have LOS. You can draw a line from the center of both of those squares that connects without hitting an obstacle. The walls drawn on the map in the case of corners are representative. This is why they had to change Breathe to being optional, because if that monster were a Dragon (yes, I know it wouldn't fit there) and that Hero had Grapple the Dragon would never be able to hit it.

As for the second part, if I understand what you are saying then yes they can. Go look at the LOS example on page 10 of the JitD rulebook. Everything in red is in Silhoutte's LOS. And with the exception of some special abilities, if you have LOS to something you can hit it.

Zearthling said:

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you think you're asking or how it's related to previous posts.

To determine if LoS exists from square A to square B, you trace a line from the center of square A to the center of square B. If that line passes through any other square containing something that blocks LoS (a wall, a rubble obstacle, another figure, etc.) then LoS is blocked. Squares that the line only intersects only at one point never block LoS. Yes, that means that it is possible to trace LoS between two obstructions that are diagonally adjacent to each other.

If a figure occupies more than one square, then LoS can be traced to or from any square it occupies for purposes of attacks.

Precision allows you to ignore one figure or obstacle that would otherwise block your LoS. Crack Shot lets you trace LoS from an adjacent empty square instead of your own square.

The shape or orientation of the physical playing piece on the board has nothing to do with anything. That's just an artist's depiction. The mechanics are entirely abstract.

I actually have no idea whether your current conception of LoS rules is correct or not because you're doing a rather bad job of articulating it. Perhaps your failure to state the rules clearly is what causes arguments in your play group?

This is getting way off subject so I'm going to open a continued thread before saying anything.

Thank you for the time and energy spent here lol