Bomb said:

Ah. Well. That makes way more sense now.

hahaha this conversation is funny.

Bomb...i see what you are saying and i also can see why it can be a problem with cards in the future (Shadow Bob). I'm not trying to take you out of context or anything, just giving arguments for the other side of the discution.

My point was that it is easy to prevent this type of combos (character dependent) early in every with almost every competitive deck out there.

Stark (¿almost? any build) meera

Bara asshai ....confession & or Shadows or the event that would return satin or bob to hand after canceling him

Lanni.....they can actually draw before you can mill their deck, so why do it, to put yourself at a really bad card disadvantage? or shadows...

Targ...start with threat of the north and any -1/-2 works

Martell....just have 3 darkstars and voila, you will probably win with him and any of the 20000000 incredible events you could have drawed before....and VBlade killed satin at the start of marshaling if not before.

Greyjoy....if choke, i doubt you could play robert/satin/trait manipulator in the same turn....or fear of winter, or maesters discarding first ranger or anything for that matter.

I mean any of those things are the things you usually see way early in the game with any of those houses and any of those can easely prevent this combo. Is easier to play the sandsnake combo on first turn than the bob/satin combo because of all the canceling martel has and no one is trying to nerf that...hell playing just Cercei on first turn would win against this combo....a 7 gold minimum combo btw (for the argument of not playing any of this cards on setup)

And you missed the point. the problem isnt this infinite combo. This combo is just the new kid on the block. and unless they are careful about putting "printed trait " on every new card where it needs to be, there will be new ones. R'hllor forbid combos which claim you infinite power.(technically already possible but requires cards out of many different houses)

Kennon said:

Interesting questions, Will. I'll bite.

Do Satin mill combos largely invalidate another deck type? Not a specific deck type, no. It could be argued that they invalidate every deck type.

Do GG shenanigans largely invalidate another deck type? Yeah, for the most part. I will say, however, that if memory serves, Brett with an uber-Robert deck beat Corey, me, and Greg in his run to the Joust championship. All 3 of us playing GG. I think the potential still exists for playing that style of deck if you build it correctly. (Probably not with Brotherhood, though, sorry.)

I think most of the discussion here has been from people who haven't put the deck together or played against it (not singling out anyone, just an educated hypothesis based on certain statements and possible "solutions" offered). The deck is extremely stable and consistent. Anyone who has played Bara before should know that 7 gold is nothing to get in the first round (Seat of Power, Narrow Sea, Streets, Flea Bottom). You should have, at minimum, 6 copies of each of the pieces of the combo or cards that get you a piece of the combo (we're only talking about a 3 card combo here) and if you don't get all 3 of them first turn, you can search for the other (Summoning Season gets all 3). I know from firsthand experience that it is very easy to get this combo to hit on round 1.

For those who think it's a disadvantage for the deck to discard itself, it can play up to 9 characters from the discard pile. It has a built-in method of putting cards back into its deck (Builder of the Watch). It's so easy to maintain board control that I took Motley Crewman out of the deck. It's just not necessary and slows you down.

Many of those solutions that have been offered, especially the plot solutions, are distasteful to me as they require me to run a sub-optimal plot for my deck. Now, many of you may scoff at this concern, or claim that it's a part of the metagame decision-making process. That's fine, but I think it's lame to be required to splash in plots like Fortified Position and Burning Bridges that do nothing to help my deck (and probably hurt lots of deck types) just in case I run into this combo. In fact, that's a whole lot more detrimental to a deck than throwing in control over a certain card type. 1/7 or 2/7 of a plot deck is a ridiculous percentage of your deck to devote to stopping a combo. Any non-plot solution has a much lower chance of stopping it unless it's a fairly dedicated Shadows deck of some kind, and even then, it likely only postpones it until the second round. Better hope you can win by then. Otherwise, the deck will reset, save Robert and possibly some other key characters, and play out a several more characters.

You may accuse me of being "anti-combo," and that's true, to a certain extent. But only when those combos don't require you to do anything other than draw them. And when the percentages are very high that you draw into them on the first turn, that's pretty lame. It's also a pretty long and boring marshalling phase.

Chalk it up to my preference to have the game actually be won by skill rather than what I draw and when I draw it. A combo deck like this leaves no room for creative play. If you know how to play it, the deck basically runs itself if you get the pieces.

longclaw said:

~Combo hater!!!!! You are ruining my game!

As a combo player, and someone who loves to play "bombs", I do feel this combo is too consistent and easy to pull off.

Combos should take effort. particularly combos that essentially win you the game when you pull it off. And considering the large number of search effects that exist in Thrones, three card combos should always be looked at very critically for game balance.

Ok, so if the combo is a problem, is the problem Satin or Robert?

OK so I just wanted to make it clear that I also think this combo is WAY OP. Longclaw is correct that you get that combo rolling turn 1 like every game. I still say the problem is trait manipulation. If there is a card without a limit, make it say printed whatever. The problem isn't just robert, because there are other cards you can turn into NW and still get the same combo as Robert.

That comment was soooo directed at me xD. I don't mind though.

I know that it's a consistent and over powered combo....believe me i know. But it's also easy to disrupt with a competitive deck, so i'm pretty sure this wouldn't win a tourney. (GG is not that easy to disrupt is all i'm saying)

It's not easier to pull this off than to have a VBlade on first turn (1 card, shadow, can kill satin....and it's in at least 30% of martell / or city of shadows decks as the restricted card)

About the gold, 7 for this combo, remember that thats only with first ranger. With the wall its 10 gold, with the NW trait manipulator its 8....seat of power/narrow only works for robert and the wall (not narrow for location). Still you can make it....but that require some deckbuilding, the same with wining after....

Finally is good to stop infinite combos, but the best way to do it, while not nerfing robert, would be making robert inmune to trait manipulation, not nerfing his power of standing xP

longclaw said:

I completely agree with this. It was one of the points I was trying to make earlier.

I actually do still think it takes some luck to get this going in round 1. Once the combo is established, there is nothing to stop it because during marshaling you will need to have the events, something already in the shadows, or a card out that has some Any Phase ability that can eliminate one of the pieces from play. It will still be my turn to marshal while I am using Satin's ability with Robert, so you won't be able to play anything that is required to be marshaled.

Fortified Position and Burning Bridges will need to be played before the combo is established because this combo will mill your deck before the end of the 1st marshaling phase it is established. If I were the player trying to get the combo working, I will not put any of the parts in play until I can get them all out at once.

I plan on trying this type of deck out to see how easy it is to get it working without the First Ranger title.

Killer of the Wounded + Rhaegar's Harp + Lyanna Stark + Satin can discard an entire deck in one phase.

Let's ban Killer of the Wounded and Lyanna Stark to make possible this combo.

Kaworu said:

Contrary to what you might believe, this is not an opportunity to bash the Baratheons. People are focusing on Robert because he is the more dangerous variant of the Satin combo. Killer of the Wounded is only marginally less problematic since it in general has lower survivability. Its still a problem card.

I for one wouldn't be bothered if either card got the Saltcliffe treatment or similar errata.

Kaworu said:

Dissension will wipe KotW out too!

That combo is even more expensive!

As i have mentioned a few times in this thread. i believe KotW is just as much a problem as Robert. And i would be surprised to see people object to a 3/round limit as much as they did for Robert.

I guess the first question to ask yourself "is it ok for the game to have infinite loops at all"? i suppose its clear enough that my answer would be "no".

but if your answer is yes, and you still think robert is fine... well, i just dont know how to respond to that. lol

let me rephrase that.

If you think infinite loops are good for the game, i have no comment.

If you think the game shouldnt have infinite loops, but you think unlimited roberts fine, also no comment.

So, just to get this clear:

If you manage to draw and play Robert, Satin, and some kind of trait manipulation, all in one turn, without anyone putting a single card in shadows, playing Valar, or various other blocks, then... you get to mill your own deck along with your opponents.

In order to mill your opponents deck, and not your own, you need to add to this a 4th element and pay for it out of house (unless you're playing Bob out-of-house)

Pretty much all of the elements of this combo are characters and very vulnerable to all kinds of removal.

The argument running seems to be that this is massively overpowered, unlike, say, Ghaston Grey, which requires a location (very little around in the way of decent location-hate, for at least half the houses) and some cheap Nobles, who spend most of their time not in play, and jump out to remove... Shadows-Bob, satin, anyone else who's annoying.

Maester Bob was silly, and showed that the Maester's path needed errata-ing, but it could just as easily have been Maester Viserys (KotS.) Robert isn't the problem. Stop picking on him, just because he's a fat, dead, drunk!

I think we should start adding tangible parts to this discussion, we are just kind of see-sawing back and forth and not talking about the deck itself.

I would probably run it out of Bara.

Robert x3, Satin x3, Builder of the Watch x3, First Ranger x3, Recruiter for the Watch x3, Yoren's Task x3, Jeyne Westerling x3. We have every variable needed to run the combo, and we only need to slot one 1 cost character out of house.

As was pointed out before, we run Seat of Power x3, but then also Flea Bottom x3, Narrow Sea x3... something like that along with our gold. Quick reducers that will allow Robert to be played cheaply. Narrow Sea also will work for Jeyne.

So we dedicate 18 cards to the combo. (Minus builder of the watch and reducers) Robert x3 and Jeyne x3 for Robert... Satin x3 himself... and Recruiter for the Watch x3 and First Ranger x3 to change Robert's trait. Yoren's Task x3 will work for either Satin or the Recruiter.

So by the start of turn 1, we have at least 9 chances (more if you play at least 1 card in setup) to draw into this 1/3, and of that 1/3 if you draw into 2 separate parts (robert/satin/trait) you can get the combo off on turn 1 by drawing the remaining part with summoning season.

For a dedicated combo deck, that doesn't seem like bad odds to me, especially since the combo isn't dead unless Robert or Satin is. So turn 2 or 3 isn't the end of the world.

When you get the combo off, you discard everything and draw your builder of the watch x3 and if they have superior board position, valar next turn.
~~~~
Was this the kind of deck you guys were thinking of? This is what I'd pictured it to be. The problem of course, is that if there's a card in shadows, there is no deck. Adding a ton of NW may offset this, and if your intent is to mill, then there's no issue running the NW agendas.

Summoning season seems like the biggest asset and biggest weakness. Correct me if I'm wrong... the player who reveals summoning season has to reveal first... right? If this is true, any smart player will grab a shadows card and just leave it there, so you'd have to get lucky and go first. 3 initiative isn't bad first round though, it seems like a lot of popular first round plots like Muster the Realm, At the gates etc, are lower.

What are everyone else's thoughts? What did you have in mind?

I've never played with or against this deck. Does it always win after the combo goes off? It seems like you'd be left with a board of one good character (Robert) and several crappy ones, versus whatever they have out and in hand. A lot of your own hand and what your Builders return will also be combo cards that are now pretty bad when they're not needed for the combo.

Alando said:

Not necessarily.

In the build I was proposing 1/3 of the deck is combo cards. Also, if you're running the nights watch agendas, the recruiters, satin, and any other night watch you run could potentially initiate challenges also. I would probably just run the military and power ones though. The agendas give pretty much every card in the deck some other utility. Jeyne will let you grab some other Bara kings if you decide to splash them in and Robert is not on the board because of Valar or whatever.

Also, if your opponent cannot draw into characters, once you gain board position, the strength of your characters doesn't matter as much, as long as you can participate in challenges.

I have also never played the deck. I just used the card search at agotcards and put together a concept so we could add some meat to our discussion.

I was kind of bored this morning, so I built a deck:

Baratheon- All 3 NW agendas

Carrion Bird x3
Sam x1
Ranger of the Watch x3
Lost Ranger x3
Recruiter for the Watch x3
Builder of the Watch x3
Satin x3
Maester Aemon x1
Maester Cressen x1
Maester Pylos x1
Jeyne Westerling x3
Fancy King Renly x1
Shadows Bob x3
NW Stannis x1

Bay of Ice x3
Narrow Sea x3
The Gift x1
Seat of Power x3
Aegon's Garden x3
King Robert's Chambers x1
Frostfang Peaks x2
Castle Black x1

Yoren's Task x3
Sword in the Darkness x3
Ill-Tidings x2
Die for your King! x2

First Ranger x3

Summoning Season x1 (To finish the combo if need be)
Fury of the Stag x1 (Nice if you already have the parts in-hand, good initiative to hopefully guarantee going first)
The King's Law x1 (Anti-Shadows)
The Power of Blood x1 (If Robert must be played in setup)
Valar x1 (Reset board control)
Counting Favors x1 (Draw when they have no deck)
Forgotten Plans x1 (Anti-Fear of Winter... for Siege decks and stuff)

This deck gets pretty wild setups (to hopefully draw into our combo), but other than that it's pretty boring. No location destruction and weak draw... Shadow's cards played in setup will kill the first turn combo. There are a ton of cheap NW though, in hopes to keep it going anyway.

There is no deck with a dead Satin, so don't let Satin die!!

I took it to OCTGN to do 10 test setups on. Without playing any of the combo components in setup, and before the 2 cards drawn in the first draw phase...

-It got all the parts... once
-Though, it got 2 parts 7 of the 10 times. So a first round summoning season isn't too bad, especially if you have bay of ice out to hopefully guarantee going first.

So, 80% of the time, unless your opponent can stop it, you can mill their deck first turn. (yay!)

Rave said:

And your own deck, dont forget that

Seriously though, has this thread been about how broken the Robert/Satin marriage is or about weather or not cards like Bob and Killer of the Wounded should be erratad so we cant use infinite combos with them (however silly and impractical they may be) ? If its the former then I think we could safely agree that even with a deck as efficient as Rave's its still a silly, dumb and not really competative combo, if its the later however...well... I personally like infinite loops, Especially if they're ridiculous and pointless. If you ask me, errata-ing cards like Bob and Killer is just following in the footsteps of irritating decisions like restricting TLS pre tournament play.

I personally hate infinite loops for interactive play. I haven't had the displeasure of actually facing this deck so I won't pretend I know firsthand, but the premise described here is lame. Assuming "combo" type play is to try and get your deck to produce a certain combination of cards which instantly wins you the game or places you in a position to do so where the opponent can't play so much as wait out the end, it is the closest thing to competitive solitaire.

Which is cool if you like racing to draw cards and put them on a table in one turn while mostly ignoring your opponent. It's one of the reasons Magic sucks, but at least that game has the decency to make you wait a number of turns before you can resource your win play. I just don't understand why one couldn't just do test draws at home like Rave did with his trial OCTGN and keep a tally that one can put up on one's fridge, unless the enjoyment of running "combo" is in decimating an opponent in a single phase and putting an end to what would have been an otherwise tedious chore: playing a game of AGoT... oh wait, I get it.

I'll build this deck or something like it as well. If we all work hard enough, maybe we can make it more than 80% reliable.

DerBarchen said:

It does mill your own deck, but don't forget, if you do this right, you have 3x builder of the watch in your hand to rebuild your deck. Also, if you happen to have a carrion bird, you get those back in your deck as well.

Also, with First Ranger, you could be triggering Builder of the Watch multiple times per turn, if you happened to draw into that for your trait manip.

Sorry, what's this "First Ranger" card people keep mentioning? I dont recall it, and can't find it on any of the card database sites

http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/4367

It's an upcoming card in the next chapter pack.