And it isn't GG. At least not yet.

Shadows bob needs to be looked at. This card will continue to be a problem for the game unless he is errated or banned.

Everyone seems very concerned about Shadows Bob lately. Am I the only one who thinks he is fine? He's a very powerful card, but I don't see him being as big a threat as some people are making him out to be. Given that Baratheon really doesn't seem to be getting any love lately, I would rather not take away one of its heavy hitters, particularly when an errata to Satin would accomplish the same thing and cut off any other potentially abusive combos involving crazy NW mill shenanigans.

His self standing ability is a problem. If Satin is errated then that is two cards that had to be errated because of Shadows Bob. I believe FFG should fix the real problem with his infinite combo potential. Sure you can errata Satin and fix the current Night's Watch problem with Shadows Bob, but that leaves open the unlimited combo potential of Shadows Bob in the future. I have no doubt that if he is not fixed now we will continue to see problems with him in the future. Might as well fix him now.

It's not like Shadows Bob was the only reason the older iteration of The Maester's Path had balance issues. Other Voltron decks were possible with other characters -- KL Joffrey was popular out of Lanni, and Killer of the Wounded worked well out of Targ. And Killer of the Wounded has been pointed out to be another character that could be used for a similar Satin mill combo, albeit a more complicated one with more moving parts (namely the need for Lyanna to restand him every time he kneels).

Characters that can restand on their own are obviously quite powerful, but I honestly don't see them as the problem. Satin is the reason the combo exists, he should be the one to be errata'd (assuming the combo is a serious enough problem to warrant an errata). I would rather see a simple errata that affects Satin and his ability, rather than an errata that could severely nerf Shadows Bob in any Bara deck he might appear in.

Satin isnt the only problem, Then theres Shaggy, if there ever comes an easy way to give them learned crests you've suddenly got infinite influence(advisors chambers) & infinite burn (house of shadow), not to mention the restriction they put on designing any new cards (no more kneel a x character to do x without a limit ever).

I think they Both bob and KotW should get the same treatment support for saltcliff got. limit 3 per round. it still lets them be beasts in challenges, and prevents these combos from getting out of hand.

Joffrey is worth taking a look at, but the reason he isnt so threatening right now is, he relies on other players to stand him. BUT, it also restricts any "kneel a character, to choose and kneel a character" type cards from being designed, cause it just opens up his infinite combo. Marya also has potential. Hell, they may as well even hit the Kingsguard Squire while they're at it.

I agree with the OP.

Shadows Robert is just kind of a dumb ability, and until it's errata'ed I think it's always going to be on the watch list.

I run a shadows Bob deck- for Challenges, not for crazy combos.

It's really very simple to shut down - put a card in shadows! there are very few builds (aside from a shadows Bob build) that can't make use of a single card in shadows.

If people are worried about combos, then all they need to do is include the word "printed" in more new cards.

He's also vulnerable to the standard forms of blanking, no stand/kneeling, motley etc.

See my only problem here is that it isn't just Fat Bob. Look at the Killer of the Wounded and Lyanna combo. These cards really need to start saying printed Night's Watch, Printed whatever so you can't turn things into NW and abuse it. I've always hated trait manipulation, and that is what's really the issue here.

As an avowed Shagga player, I'd like to let this one go for a little bit and see how it actually turns out to be in tournament play. There is of course one huge thing that seems largely overlooked here, even by very reference to the card itself- it's not "Shadows Robert" it's " NO Shadows Robert." He has a very self explanatory limit built into his own standing ability. It's not like there's a dearth of good Shadows cards to go around that people could include in their decks.

I don't think that forcing people to include cards of a certain subtheme is an adequate way to balance such a strong ability. This is also what I believe is wrong with the Summer agenda. (though Ill-tidings helps!)

Or just give him a limit 3 per round, which is still incredibly good. I don't know why you would ever need to stand and kneel a character endlessly without infinite combos.

Variables that all decks can have a chance to counter, such as the new less cards in hand, or more gold in your gold pool mechanics would make more sense in terms of balance.

Rave said:

Just making sure I understand. You are simply giving examples of variables that currently any deck built has a chance to counter currently. While Shadows Bob's ability can only be countered by a very specific condition. What kills me is his ability can be countered and then... wait.... is that the King's Law I see just revealed?

There will be counters to the only Kryptonite(besides certain attachments and blanking effects) that makes Shadow Bob normal, but there are lots of counters against those that this deck should be ready for. Maester Lomys for one.

I disagree.

That's what good deck do. They handle various strong deck types. Shadows is not a subtheme that has no use in some decks. Including Syrio or Varys can be a no brainer in most decks. Maybe you don't draw into them, but you have possible answer right there. If you don't think about being able to stop Baratheon's uber-non-shadow characters then your deck will lose to it every time. Your deck might kick ass against everything else, but isn't that the point?

Good decks figure out a way to defend themselves against most of the various tricks of other decks. Do they work every time? No. But saying a card needs to see errata because the deck your building can't handle it seems presumptuous.

If stopping GG was as simple as stopping to Robert, nobody would complain of GG.

Rave said:

I can think of plenty of reasons I would want to use him more than 3 times in a round, none of which involve the specter of "infinite combos." Kneel him for Into the Lists. Kneel him for various costs. Or just to be able to use him fully on both offense and defense.

You cite less cards in hand or having most gold, both of which are Lanni variables. Martell has cards that like it went they're outnumbered. Stark has cards that run better when it's Winter and/or when there're cards in Shadows. Baratheon has a handful of cards that become most powerful when there are no cards in Shadows. That's just a flavor for the House, and I don't want that nerfed. Particularly when Baratheon is currently one of the weaker houses.

No shadows Robert is a problem. How and when it will be addressed is anyone's guess, but if you don't think a character that you can stand an infinite number of times isn't a problem you don't understand this game. He wasn't so problematic when he first came out because so many decks were using Shadows and there were few cards that could truly abuse with his ability. The further we get from Shadows the more powerful he becomes and the more he impacts design.

He needs an alteration. That does not preclude the addition of "printed" on cards that key off certain traits, it is in addition. Bob will continue to be a problem without errata.

Maybe I'll just toss in 3x Bowl of Brown in my deck. It's not a condition attachment and if I put it on sneaky bobby, he'll be rendered a useless piece of monkey crap. Lomys will not be able to help him, only general attachment discarding.

Let's just hope I can get a copy of it in my hand before Bobby, Satin, and First Ranger are put into play.

I also want to point out that I can also put it on Satin and make him become relatively useless as well. Sure, Milk of the Poppy works, but that is easier to discard.

I don't see how people can say "Oh just put answers in your deck for GG! There are a million answers out there!" But those same people say that Robert is broken. Just another example of the community thinking uber control is fine, while being scared to death of anything that isn't control possibly gaining ground.

Staton said:

The reason why no shadows Robert might need to be fixed is because of his uber control aspect. I don't see anybody complaining about his insane rush or powergrab.

I see it more as a combo myself. The discarding of the whole deck. I mean if you errata him you still have the combo with other cards like Killer of the Wounded.

IMO Bob is actually good for the game, any combo you can do with him will be considered and will be fixed. If there is no such combos Bob not be fixed, and any day would a way to use them and would be worse because many at once.

Staton said:

Staton said:

Sorry, but you're comparing apples and oranges, Josh. One effect is efficient and arguably undercosted, while the other, with a high rate of success, discards your entire deck on the marshalling phase of the first turn, quite likely before you've had a chance to marshal anything. One requires that you draw your answers before the game ends in 4-6 rounds. The other requires that you draw your answer on setup, and drawing that answer only means that you likely lose your deck on the second round marshalling phase.

Call me crazy, but I'd much rather deal with the deck that gives me several rounds to deal with the threat rather than just the top 7 cards of my deck.

Personally, I'm always amazed that in all the ways people have suggested to take care of Robert, no one has mentioned the most obvious one:

KILL HIM!

For a board that seems to generally accept the fragility of characters, that particular aspect never seems to come up when we talk about how broken individual characters (without immunity) can be. Granted, directed kill is easier for some Houses than others, but characters still do a lot of dying in this game. Granted also, people have this really lame tendency to see a dupe on a key unique character and refuse to "waste" their targeted kill on it instead of taking the "big picture" approach and removing the "shield"....

(Let the flaming with all the reasons why you "can't" kill him start....)

If you can play Shadow Robert, Satin, and First Ranger all in the first turn, without a Motley Crewman, you will be Milling your whole entire own deck at the same time as them. If this happens, all that's left are what you have in your hand and in play unless you can find a way to take cards out of your discard pile.

I am becoming more and more convinced that this combo will be a little difficult to achieve quickly. I view it similarly to getting No Use for Grief working. Once that successfully resolves by killing The Red Viper, it becomes quite difficult to overcome.

You need to draw Shadow Bob, Satin, and First Ranger(or use Recruiter of the Watch). You will need 7 or 8 cost reduction + gold to play them all in Round 1 marshaling. You will only be able to play Satin and/or Recruiter of the Watch or just Bob during setup. If you use Setup for Bob, he is probably going to be Valar'd. If you use it for Satin, he's probably going to be Valar'd. If you can't afford all this **** out in Round 1 but only play one or the other, the opponent will do everything they can to kill or remove one of them.

Either way you are Milling your own deck as fast as the opponents since Motley Crewmen will be expensive unless you make this Alliance agenda or Alliance plot. If you are milling your own deck at the same pace, you're simply playing chicken once it runs out unless you were able to get a Builder of the Watch out before Milling your entire deck. Possibly while you are milling, you wait until you come across all your Build of the Watches and then draw them.

I'm actually very interested in seeing how this combo works out. I feel like it will be stopped before it can start when you see the opponent trying to get it going.

ktom said:

~Your so stupid! My opponent is obviously running double The Power of Bloods!